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Armed&Hammered
5/17/2006 3:18am,
Hmmmm.... Possible counters and or problems with the reverse omoplata

First off I am not a BJJ specialist, however I have wrestled for over thirteen years and studied traditional jiujitsu for seven. I've noticed a few rather obvious flaws with this technique.
1.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7561/162035hw.jpg

2.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1589/514428en.jpg

I also realize that there are many other BJJ techniques that are not easily implemented against wrestlers.... so I'll

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4433/514460md.jpg

Cassius
5/17/2006 4:17am,
Hmmmm.... Possible counters and or problems with the reverse omoplata

First off I am not a BJJ specialist, however I have wrestled for over thirteen years and studied traditional jiujitsu for seven. I've noticed a few rather obvious flaws with this technique.Have you actually trained in BJJ before? Aeso (or Shuma) is going to delete your post, but I'll respond just for fun.


1. Why or how would your arm be in the upsidown position when between someone's legs? That is extremely counterintuitive.... either while taking someone down or at all, because if it were in the opposite position you could post on their hamstring, raise your hips and circle behind.Sigh . . . this question shows your lack of understanding of submission grappling. You have to set the technique up. The ways of trapping someone's arm in the "trigger" position for reverse omoplata are myriad. One such example is baiting with your far leg (let's say the right leg). If your opponenet is turtled, you can bring your far leg closer to their body. Often, they will grab it, thinking they have just secured a leg for a single. As they are doing this, you cross your right knee over top of your left and then triangle your legs. This switch is fast, easy, and extremely tight. You will not simply shrug out of it.
2. If for whatever god awful reason your arm managed to get stuck there. Either before you felt the actual trapping of it or right as it was being applied, you can counter with a cranby variation and still end up behind and in control. - Granted I realize that cranby variations are fairly advanced college wrestling techniques... but wouldn't tucking your opposite arm and rolling across your shoulders, kicking through to keep your arm out of danger be intuitive?

I also realize that there are many other BJJ techniques that are not easily implemented against wrestlers.... so I'll suffice to say that while it looks very very weak its not quite crappling I guess.Because no BJJer has ever done wrestling before, right? Your arguments show a lack of exposure to competent submission grapplers. None of what you describe is "simply" going to happen. If someone triangles your arm properly for a trigger, tucking and rolling is going to tear your shoulder out of socket. Period. If your training partner is nice, he'll probably let go and allow you to put yourself into side control.

In parting, I leave you with the DHS forum description:


Fighting the battle against Crappling. All GOOD grappling-related discussion goes here. If you start a stupid thread or make a stupid post, you will be detained and transfered to the facilities at Guantanamo Bay.

Armed&Hammered
5/17/2006 4:46am,
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3707/25969sa.jpg

Locu5
5/17/2006 5:22am,
I am confused by your definition of a technique as weak simply because it has counters. Can you share the strong techniques you use that have no counters?

Armed&Hammered
5/17/2006 5:24am,
I have 7 years aikijiujitsu experience 13yrs wrestling experience and 5years studying pancreation.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5122/373721pa.jpg

I found quite to my dismay that my very first opinion post in reverseomeplata had been trolled by a old member of this site... Simply because I discussed the counter in terms of a (wrestling) cranby roll.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1413/d6452ub.jpg

So my question is political... is the Department of Homeland security only for BJJ? If so...it's a bit like disowning your father and grandfather, don't you think?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1720/25936vv.jpg

I have a lot of solid grappling experience and a lot of positive input, and always vow to make solid opinions and explain why.
Was I merely trolled or did I walk into a BJJ only forum. In my line of work, traditional jiujitsu will save your life wheras a gaurd might get you killed.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3746/514433zh.jpg

Everyone has concealed weopons these days...does BJJ even address them. I'm a fan of BJJ in MMA but it won't help you much with a traffic stop.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5279/160142qs.jpg

Armed&Hammered
5/17/2006 5:36am,
Good point... I suppose most techniques have counters. I guess my initial reaction was in that the techniqe begins with an inverted arm, which in all my experience is a big no no.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/774/160941lk.jpg

MONGO
5/17/2006 6:44am,
Um, blatant statements of the guard not working on a traffic stop gone bad will only work on people who don't know better. There are a number of successful encounters involving BJJ cops and 'clients'.

The guard and other techniques all have their place and application in real encounters.

Locu5
5/17/2006 6:44am,
I heartily recommend you get over it. We really aren't the nicest bunch, especially to new people who haven't yet shown themselves worthy of respect. This subforum is for grappling, solid grappling, discussion. If you feel you have that perspective and want to post arguements, ideas, etc, feel free to do so, but it is highly likely it will be bandied about a bit, and perhaps mocked. So the question really is, can the non-BJJers hang?

MONGO
5/17/2006 6:59am,
I've studied submission grappling for over 7 years in traditional japanese jiujitsu as well as pancration. Only a BJJ wanna be elitist could assume that just because I mention a counter in the framework of wrestling that I have little or no submission grappling experience. That would be paramount to myself assuming that you have no striking experience.
Next time you accuse a response of being "dumb" check it to make sure that it doesn't agree with the author of the thread who calles his roll- out counter a romoplata. Which if you knew anything about grappling is the most obvious and intuitive counter for this move.
Next time you decide to enlighten us with your infallible information, attack the argument rather than jumping to assumtions about the experience of the author. I didn't attack Aesopian's credibility or experience, I simply stated that it sounded weak and stated why. FYI aikijiujitsu and pancration were systems that predated BJJ by centuries and millenia - Where do you get off assuming that if you're not BJJ you're limited? This is supposed to be a forum for grappling not BJJ snobs.

Which ryu of Jujutsu? Who taught the pankration, because the mma revolution has brought up a lot of fakes?

Also, length of lineage doesn't mean credibility.........

Locu5
5/17/2006 7:06am,
OOoo, while we are questioning the newbie... Armed&Hammered what is your line of work that you referenced re: the dangers of guard + weapons?

Phrost
5/17/2006 7:45am,
Plenty of non BJJ people post in here. Including me.

But the techniques forums are predisposed to people who train with aliveness, full resistance, and pressure testing of one's skills in competition. If you do not do these things in your training, then you probably shouldn't post here.

JohnnyCache
5/17/2006 8:06am,
Well, see, what you do is you just have irresistable, powdered-sugar coated balls.

When the guy reaches for them, you hit him with the RO

Armed&Hammered
5/17/2006 8:30am,
It seems that the keyboard cowboys rule this domain... God forbid someone should remark about an obscure BJJ technique being weak due to it's unlikeliness in a combat situation. Yes I am a police officer, no I'm going to list all of the training I've had. This is more of a character assasination site than a discussion forum. I once read a thread about how it was better to kick a knife out of someone's hand rather than to restrain them..... if you can believe that, you probably fit right in. - farewell folks

http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/8956/aiki15uk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Locu5
5/17/2006 8:36am,
Are all cops in your area such pussies about words on the Internet? Seriously, all I see is waaaaaaah. Get a grip, man.

JohnnyCache
5/17/2006 8:39am,
Oh, where are you a police officer, mayberry?

You PUT the guy in the lock

Your critique is as dumb as saying "You can't put a guy in a RNC because he's not going to just tuck his head into your arm"

I mean ****'s sack man

You KNOW that if you grapple. You KNOW that if you're a cop. You jumped all over someone for posting a technique that's been done to you how many times? That you've performed how many times?

And for ****'s sack (like sake but lower) if you're a fucking cop you've probably been through worse "character assasination" every single time you give somebody a ticket

Cowboy the **** up

JohnnyCache
5/17/2006 8:41am,
Actually, I read your intro post, you appear to be a blowhard. Never mind, recommence stomping off