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Bong
5/12/2006 6:58pm,
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/wingchun/wing-mike_31.mpg

Some guy call Alan Orr.

Whats peoples opinions?

Pretty good resistance. It's kinda similar to the chi sao we do.

Askari
5/12/2006 7:07pm,
So I turned up at this swim class and the instructor said to us:

"For the first 6 months we are going to do drills that look nothing like swimming, and really have very little to do with swimming. We are going to spend a lot of time talking about the theory of swimming.

Yes, I acknowledge that those guys that actually swim may become better swimmers for now, but by doing these drills that really dont look like swimming in 10 years you are going to be a better swimmer then they are."

The swim teacher continued:

"Now students, you are only going to look at the water and I am going to now tell you how good I would be if I ever did swim."

Even though this teacher has never gone swimming they claim how great they would be if they ever did swim.





That is my opinion of Chi Sao.

Goju - Joe
5/12/2006 7:47pm,
Why are they wearing knee pads. In fact I am pretty sure the guy in the white one sis wearing shin gards pulled up to his knees!

What up wit dat!!

MaverickZ
5/12/2006 7:52pm,
why does chi sao sound like a food?

Neildo
5/12/2006 7:54pm,
why does chi sao sound like a food?


I usually get the Chi Sao's after a good Bong Sao session.

Goju - Joe
5/12/2006 7:56pm,
hmmm Chi sao hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

http://turbomirage.phpwebhosting.com/pics/misc/homer_drool.gif

Crash
5/12/2006 8:31pm,
I didn't really see much rolling energy; to me it looked more like slap-fu.

Southpaw
5/12/2006 8:37pm,
The video is horrible. The chi sao is ridiculous. Chi sao is an exercise for sensitivity, not a slap-boxing match. And as a drill, that you train w/ a partner, it isn't really working if you are just beating the **** out of your partner like in the video. You should just spar if you want to slap people up. Chi sao has a limited function as it is, don't try to make it what it is not.





So I turned up at this swim class and the instructor said to us:

"For the first 6 months we are going to do drills that look nothing like swimming, and really have very little to do with swimming. We are going to spend a lot of time talking about the theory of swimming.

Yes, I acknowledge that those guys that actually swim may become better swimmers for now, but by doing these drills that really dont look like swimming in 10 years you are going to be a better swimmer then they are."

The swim teacher continued:

"Now students, you are only going to look at the water and I am going to now tell you how good I would be if I ever did swim."

Even though this teacher has never gone swimming they claim how great they would be if they ever did swim.

That is my opinion of Chi Sao.

Bad analogy.

Since you are on a swim team, you must compete in one way or another. Thus, you have an interest in becoming a good swimmer as fast as you can. If you have a finite period to become a good swimmer (before your first match), you aren't going to be taught advanced breath control when performing a kick turn, you are going to be training in the meat and potatoes of swimming.

Chi sao isn't meant to substitute for actual training (meaning versus a resisting partner)...but is mearly meant add a little something to it. That being said...it is a miserable waste of time if you just want to learn how to throw punches and beat people up.



Wing Chun is a traditonal martial art. If you aren't interested in learning a traditional martial art, and aren't prepared to accept the facts that go along with that, you shouldn't train wing chun.

In general class we typically train chi sao for 15 minutes for a 2-hour class. It is a small price to pay to start learning a foundation that will be necessary if you ever want to proceed for any length of time with any understanding in the study of wing chun.

Having been training for some years now, I love chi sao w/ my classmates. I try to learn something everytime I cross hands w/ someone, be they my senior or a new student. Two senior students should be competitive in chi sao...but I've never seen any bullshit like the video above.

I've learned a lot doing chi sao. Different from what I learn when I spar, or when I get in an actual fight, but I learn a lot.

Part of learning a traditional martial art is learning a lot of other stuff that sometimes is not easily seen to be related to actual fighting.

Bong
5/12/2006 11:16pm,
The video is horrible. The chi sao is ridiculous. Chi sao is an exercise for sensitivity, not a slap-boxing match. And as a drill, that you train w/ a partner, it isn't really working if you are just beating the **** out of your partner like in the video. You should just spar if you want to slap people up. Chi sao has a limited function as it is, don't try to make it what it is not.
Yes, chi sao is to develop sensitivity, but it isn't jus about rolling your arms. You need to strike against a non-compliance partner. The better you get, and the more sensitive you become, chi sao can/should become more "freestyle." It dosn't mean your not using sensitivity.

Ke?poFist
5/12/2006 11:23pm,
You know it reminded me of maneuvering to find a position while grappling...only problem is striking doesn't work that way, and most standard clinch techniques work much faster and easier than trying to slip by and chop the neck.

supercrap
5/13/2006 6:17am,
It's a kind of damned if you do, damned if you dont thing with wing chun.


On the one hand, at least you can see some force being applied there.

On the other hand, for a master, he looks damn sloppy. Leaning, pushing, shoving, etc. Wing chun breaks down when it's done like that.


I think he has a brain on his shoulders though, has some kind of association with British MMA.

TheSparrow
5/13/2006 6:25am,
Alan Orr is the guy behind "Body Structure Wing Chun". He has a fair few people compete in Amatuer MMA, which is interesting because there are no head shots, so I don't see how Wing Chun could apply very well.
Pretty sure his guys are not pure Wing Chun.

Here's their fights:
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/Iron%20Wolves%20clips.html

As for the chi sao itself, I've seen that video before, just didn't realise it was Alan Orr. As supercrap said, you're damned it you do and you're damnd if you don't. Chi Sao is inherently limited and my major problems with it were the amount of time you would spend in the exercise. Spending 80% of your classtime doing chi sao is not conducive to becoming a better fighter.
And you can't just by-pass that by turning it into something that it isn't meant to be. You may as well spar.

But yeah, Alan Orr's Wing Chun must be some of the best in the world- mainly because when they fight it doesn't look like Wing Chun ;-)

Southpaw
5/13/2006 7:11am,
Yes, chi sao is to develop sensitivity, but it isn't jus about rolling your arms. You need to strike against a non-compliance partner. The better you get, and the more sensitive you become, chi sao can/should become more "freestyle." It dosn't mean your not using sensitivity.

Chi sao is about using sensitivity to find openings. There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner. If you find an opening, you should strike, but you do in to the degree to show your partner that they have an opening or hole, not to spazz out and throw a bunch of punches at your partner.

Yes...the more you do it, the better you become. And yes, as you get good, it become more free-flowing...especially with adding footwork and transitioning from lop sao drill to chi sao. But it should never look like the video. That was ridiculous.

Dagon Akujin
5/13/2006 1:19pm,
There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner. Don't you mean there is no such thing as compliant chi-sau? (Yes, it's a very limited drill in a lot of ways, but partners arn't just allowing things to happen to them.) Limited ruleset =/= compliant.



But it should never look like the video. That was ridiculous.I didn't think it looked that bad as an interpretation of chi sau. It was interesting to see one partner started against a wall, and it looked to me like Orr was throwing some crosses, body shots, and knees that don't show up often in standard chi sau (and not using much trapping or faan saus). I think it certainly looked like an interesting training excercise, though it would be going way too far to say that's what chi sau is supposed to look like.

What about this one Amp: Chi Sau (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2730836739806198104&q=vyvial)? There's some kiu sau in it too, though it's a bit more one-sided (a sifu playing around with his student).

Thanky,

Dagon "mullet finger" Akujin

Southpaw
5/13/2006 1:48pm,
What about this one Amp: Chi Sau (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2730836739806198104&q=vyvial)? There's some kiu sau in it too, though it's a bit more one-sided (a sifu playing around with his student).

Thanky,

Dagon "mullet finger" Akujin


Looks better than the 1st one.

Looks like they are both getting something out of it I guess?

I should note...me criticizing anyone's chi sao is just me talking out of my ass since my chi sao sucks just like everyone else's.

Bong
5/13/2006 2:34pm,
Chi sao is about using sensitivity to find openings. There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner. If you find an opening, you should strike, but you do in to the degree to show your partner that they have an opening or hole, not to spazz out and throw a bunch of punches at your partner.
So when you chi sao, your partner just allows your to hit him? He doesn’t "block" and make it difficult. That's what i meant when i said non-compliant - someone who isn't just going to be a doormat.