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rlee34
5/12/2006 2:23am,
Here we have someone that had legendary power that is well-documented. TMA's have yet to produce a definitively modern MMA example of fighting prowess like this. If Rocko wasnt a straightup boxer I don't think he would have had his perfect record like Gracie almost had. But no Karateka or tae kwon joe has done the equivalent in their own competitions. Boxin's one of those sports where a 19 year old can come in and separate champ from chump, and very constrained as far as rules. Rocko still whupped all challengers without being a Bob Sapp.

Rocco Francis Marchegiano
49-0-0 43 Knockouts
5'11" 185-188 (yup he was still a heavyweight)
67" reach

www.rockymarciano.net (http://www.rockymarciano.net/)
http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Hands/Punching/PunchInfo.htm

His punch was measured to have the power of an armor piercing shell. Not bullshido!

In 1963, the U.S. Testing Company was asked to measure the power of Rocky's punch. It found that Marciano's knockout punch packed more explosive energy than an armor-piercing bullet and represented as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, Marciano beat down the guards of his opponents, and then, with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, he hammered them into submission.


To put this in perspective, you'd have to be a bodybuilder to squat 1000 lbs. or more. He had 14 inch biceps.

"As his workouts intensified and progressed, both men became highly skillful in throwing fast, accurate bullet-like passes at each other - with either hand. Some claim this may have enhanced Rocky's unique skill in fending off, or "picking off," the punches thrown by some of his relatively taller and longer-armed opponents.
This unique skill also may have also enhanced his ability to utilize split second opportunities to work his way in and deliver his notoriously quick and powerful jabs and uppercuts." In any case, everyone noticed that his arm strength and precision were remarkably effective."

Sounds like the theory behind JKD. But Rocky was a notoriously bad boxer too. Bruce Lee shoulda got in the ring more and less on film, maybe he'd have been something more than hype. Or got XPOSED for being bullshido

"On Sept. 23, 1952, Rocky fought Jersey Joe Walcott for the world heavyweight championship. Although he was knocked down in the first round - and was behind in the scoring for the first 7 rounds - he finally won in the13th by knocking out Walcott with a desperately powerful - and extremely accurate - right punch. It was a right cross that traveled only six inches, which he always referred to, thereafter, as his "Susie Q."

WITH a bigarse glove on btw. Imagine him with makiwara-trained rockbreaking knuckles.

TMA's were started with people like rocko here. Will someone ever arise from Wing Chun to prove it's t3h d34dly style its advertised to be?

Edit: I'm saying that a boxer applied many of the principles that are found in TMAs like "short power" and "intercepting fist" but never learned a single one, and was arguably not a very good boxer either, and rose to the top of a striking art with short arms. I guess this is more of an argument for TMAs because people say that striking TMAs are no good in a real fight/in the ring/on the street, but the principles are applied in professional rings and in the cage by champions all the time, the only difference being that the champ didn't follow an exactly prescribed program by some ancient dude.

Lights Out
5/12/2006 2:31am,
What is exactly your point? What kind of feedback you're looking for?

You may criticize Marziano as much as you want but, the truth is he destroyed the best at his time.

They could take and deliver massive damage.

It is Fake
5/12/2006 2:40am,
Here we have someone that had legendary power that is well-documented. TMA's have yet to produce a definitively modern MMA example of fighting prowess like this. If Rocko wasnt a straightup boxer I don't think he would have had his perfect record like Gracie almost had. But no Karateka or tae kwon joe has done the equivalent in their own competitions. Boxin's one of those sports where a 19 year old can come in and separate champ from chump, and very constrained as far as rules. Rocko still whupped all challengers without being a Bob Sapp.

Rocco Francis Marchegiano
49-0-0 43 Knockouts
5'11" 185-188 (yup he was still a heavyweight)
67" reach

www.rockymarciano.net (http://www.rockymarciano.net/)
http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Hands/Punching/PunchInfo.htm

His punch was measured to have the power of an armor piercing shell. Not bullshido!

In 1963, the U.S. Testing Company was asked to measure the power of Rocky's punch. It found that Marciano's knockout punch packed more explosive energy than an armor-piercing bullet and represented as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, Marciano beat down the guards of his opponents, and then, with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, he hammered them into submission.

To put this in perspective, you'd have to be a bodybuilder to squat 1000 lbs. or more.

"As his workouts intensified and progressed, both men became highly skillful in throwing fast, accurate bullet-like passes at each other - with either hand. Some claim this may have enhanced Rocky's unique skill in fending off, or "picking off," the punches thrown by some of his relatively taller and longer-armed opponents.
This unique skill also may have also enhanced his ability to utilize split second opportunities to work his way in and deliver his notoriously quick and powerful jabs and uppercuts." In any case, everyone noticed that his arm strength and precision were remarkably effective."

Sounds like the theory behind JKD. But Rocky was a notoriously bad boxer too. Bruce Lee shoulda got in the ring more and less on film, maybe he'd have been something more than hype. Or got XPOSED for being bullshido

"On Sept. 23, 1952, Rocky fought Jersey Joe Walcott for the world heavyweight championship. Although he was knocked down in the first round - and was behind in the scoring for the first 7 rounds - he finally won in the13th by knocking out Walcott with a desperately powerful - and extremely accurate - right punch. It was a right cross that traveled only six inches, which he always referred to, thereafter, as his "Susie Q."

WITH a bigarse glove on btw. Imagine him with makiwara-trained rockbreaking knuckles.

TMA's were started with people like rocko here. Will someone ever arise from Wing Chun to prove it's t3h d34dly style its advertised to be?


Are you drunk. I mean I can't tell what you are talking about. You denigrate TMA then say how good would RM be if he had traditional Iron Palm training.

kung_fu_zombie
5/12/2006 3:36pm,
First Friend of Brasky: Bill Brasky is a son of a bitch! Do you fellas know Bill Brasky?

Second Friend of Brasky: Hell yeah, I know Bill Brasky! He's a big fella, goes about 6'4", 280. He loves his Scotch!

Third Friend of Brasky: He does! He's a hell of a salesman!

Fourth Friend of Brasky: To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!

Third: Did you know Bill Brasky is the godfather of my son?

Fourth: Bill Brasky?

First: He's a big fella!

Second: Oh yeah, he's a big guy! Goes about 6'7", 385.

Third: Well, anyway.. he shows up at the church in his golf pants, caked in mud. Well, ol' Bill Brasky pushes the priest aside and says, "I'll baptize that piece of calamari!" Then he pours Scotch all over my baby son and says, "There! You're baptized!"

Fourth: And your son is blind to this day!

First: Yeah, he makes brooms somewhere in Georgia, doesn't he?

Third: I have no idea. [ pause ] To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!

BaguaMonk
5/13/2006 7:40pm,
If you take away the BS of CMA, you got some very powerful principles. Its too bad that in order to learn anything worthwile, you gotta learn from some old in-experienced *****. For example, my friend boxes, I do xingyi. We were hitting on a punching bag and he asked me to show him some xingyi punches. Doing them fast it didn't look like it was any different than his boxing (except for more use of vertical fist), but my punches hit harder and faster. Why? Intergration of whole body in a different way (compression-release) and "short jing." I would love to see people apply these principles, the way Bruce Lee did, in a FREE and non-restrictive sort of environment. But it seems that non of these CMA hippies are neither tough, nor have a deep understanding enough to actually put it to good use.

peng
5/14/2006 1:55am,
If you take away the BS of CMA, you got some very powerful principles. Its too bad that in order to learn anything worthwile, you gotta learn from some old in-experienced *****. For example, my friend boxes, I do xingyi. We were hitting on a punching bag and he asked me to show him some xingyi punches. Doing them fast it didn't look like it was any different than his boxing (except for more use of vertical fist), but my punches hit harder and faster. Why? Intergration of whole body in a different way (compression-release) and "short jing." I would love to see people apply these principles, the way Bruce Lee did, in a FREE and non-restrictive sort of environment. But it seems that non of these CMA hippies are neither tough, nor have a deep understanding enough to actually put it to good use.

My sifu is old, but hardly an inexperienced *****, lol.
And I haven't been a hippy since middle school. :)

If you're learning from someone who's never fought, what can they teach you?

The biggest problem is understanding and discipline. Folks are satisfied with superficial results and don't bother delving into the real depths of their chosen art. This is nothing new, I've got 100 year old writings complaining of the exact same problem amongst old school students.

And those same writings stress what ol' Bruce was so proud of, surpassing the form and reaching the void state, basically, where technique flows naturally without thought or effort.

But it takes a **** load of drills to get to that point.

Efro
5/14/2006 6:50am,
First Friend of Brasky: Bill Brasky is a son of a bitch! Do you fellas know Bill Brasky?

Second Friend of Brasky: Hell yeah, I know Bill Brasky! He's a big fella, goes about 6'4", 280. He loves his Scotch!

Third Friend of Brasky: He does! He's a hell of a salesman!

Fourth Friend of Brasky: To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!

Third: Did you know Bill Brasky is the godfather of my son?

Fourth: Bill Brasky?

First: He's a big fella!

Second: Oh yeah, he's a big guy! Goes about 6'7", 385.

Third: Well, anyway.. he shows up at the church in his golf pants, caked in mud. Well, ol' Bill Brasky pushes the priest aside and says, "I'll baptize that piece of calamari!" Then he pours Scotch all over my baby son and says, "There! You're baptized!"

Fourth: And your son is blind to this day!

First: Yeah, he makes brooms somewhere in Georgia, doesn't he?

Third: I have no idea. [ pause ] To Bill Brasky!

Together: Bill Brasky!!


??? Isn't that a little off topic?

Doctor X
5/14/2006 7:47am,
There is a topic?

--J.D.

Gezere
5/14/2006 8:41am,
In 1963, the U.S. Testing Company was asked to measure the power of Rocky's punch. It found that Marciano's knockout punch packed more explosive energy than an armor-piercing bullet and represented as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground.

This old tale is still being spread around. Yes statements were made to this effect but one as to question how much power can a human fist generate vs something moving at supersonic speed

Lights Out
5/14/2006 9:53am,
But it takes a **** load of drills to get to that point.

I'd say it takes more than drills to achieve it.

As in "drills alone are not enough".

peng
5/14/2006 11:58am,
I'd say it takes more than drills to achieve it.

As in "drills alone are not enough".

Drills make the movement natural.

They don't practice three pointers in the NBA playoffs. They practice throwing them before the game, so when the game comes the movement is natural and smooth.

For every minute of gametime, there's an hour of drill and practice beforehand, not counting "scrimmages" and all the time it took them to get there.

Application against a live opponent is critical to mastery, but not nearly as important as drilling.

Lights Out
5/14/2006 12:01pm,
Application against a live opponent is critical to mastery, but not nearly as important as drilling.

I disagree.

Drilling constitutes the base, but the application on a live opponent is needed to "putting it all togheter".

Spyda
5/14/2006 1:07pm,
His punch was measured to have the power of an armor piercing shell. Not bullshido!

In 1963, the U.S. Testing Company was asked to measure the power of Rocky's punch. It found that Marciano's knockout punch packed more explosive energy than an armor-piercing bullet and represented as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, Marciano beat down the guards of his opponents, and then, with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, he hammered them into submission.





Hold on, so what is being said is that Rocko could basiclly punch THROUGH anything that an armor-piercing bullet? :wtfgif9fr soooooooooo, that means that if he were to get into a fight with john doe on the street, he could punch a hole into the man. EVEN if this was all fact, that also means that when he had gloves on in the ring, his punch would be able ta break a neck with ease. ta my knowleadge, this never happened.

peng
5/14/2006 1:49pm,
I disagree.

Drilling constitutes the base, but the application on a live opponent is needed to "putting it all togheter".


Of course it helps, but in an actual sparring situation you have one, maybe two chances to receive and respond to a specific technique, wheras drilling allows you near-unlimited numbers of practice rounds.

Going back the the SCA for a second, the most feared and respected fighter in Trimaris (the southeastern "kingdom") was a guy named Baldur who threw a thousand pell strokes a day. He also attended fight practice once a month or so, maybe, sometimes, but he had no trouble wiping the dirt with folks who fought two or three times a week, regularly.

Of course, this is the cue for "but the SCA isn't real fighting" line, but that isn't the point.

The point is that the thousand strokes a day made his body so comfortable throwing those strokes that he didn't have to think to make his sword go where he wanted, by the time he realized he was looking at an opening, contact was already made and the opponent beaten.

The skills imparted via fighting, strategy, looking for openings, dealing with the opponents mechanical force, getting past the fear of being hit, etc, aren't nearly as important as the muscle memory and "body thinking" that drilling engenders.

If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.

Six gates are six gates, they never change, and they change from opponent to opponent. Fighting any one person will not necesarrily prepare you to fight the next person, but drilling prepares your body to deal with anything.

Mind you, I'm not saying that actual sparring and fighting are unnecesarry, just that they are less important than drills.

In REAL combat, you only get one chance.

peng
5/14/2006 1:59pm,
Hold on, so what is being said is that Rocko could basiclly punch THROUGH anything that an armor-piercing bullet? :wtfgif9fr soooooooooo, that means that if he were to get into a fight with john doe on the street, he could punch a hole into the man. EVEN if this was all fact, that also means that when he had gloves on in the ring, his punch would be able ta break a neck with ease. ta my knowleadge, this never happened. Unavailable for comment.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b37/taojonez/chosenone.jpg

Lights Out
5/14/2006 2:07pm,
Of course, this is the cue for "but the SCA isn't real fighting" line, but that isn't the point.

No, the cue is that you're talking about a freak of nature who lived a couple of centuries ago or so.


The point is that the thousand strokes a day made his body so comfortable throwing those strokes that he didn't have to think to make his sword go where he wanted, by the time he realized he was looking at an opening, contact was already made and the opponent beaten.

This has been beaten to dead here a thousan times. I'm not feeling like repeating it all again. If you want to learn to fight, eventually you'll have to fight. No matter how much you practice body movement off of water, if you ever want to learn to swim, you have to get wet.


The skills imparted via fighting, strategy, looking for openings, dealing with the opponents mechanical force, getting past the fear of being hit, etc, aren't nearly as important as the muscle memory and "body thinking" that drilling engenders.

If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.

Six gates are six gates, they never change, and they change from opponent to opponent. Fighting any one person will not necesarrily prepare you to fight the next person, but drilling prepares your body to deal with anything.

Mind you, I'm not saying that actual sparring and fighting are unnecesarry, just that they are less important than drills.

In REAL combat, you only get one chance.

I didn't say drilling wasn't important or unnecessary. So you can keep your strwaman for yourself, thank you.

I'm saying that drilling alone, as important it is to get good body movement and good tehcnique is not enough to learn to fight.

Leaving aside the exceptionally naturally talented figthter, you'll need to fight, and a lot, to become proficent at it. As in everything in life.

If you fail to see this, you may want to read more on this subject on this same forum.