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mad_mally
4/23/2006 12:29am,
I take a marital art that's a bend of Goju karate and traditional Jujitsu (mostly small circle stuff), and I've recently become very pissed off at the self-defense techinques used in our system. Basically, ous self defense techiques are consist of striking our opponent then taking him down with a wrist lock, arm bar or throw. The karate part of our system is very good and resembles Kyokyshin style fighting, however we never practice our jujitsu techniques on a resisting opponet. Nor do we practice randori, or ne waza techiques. In short, I have no idea how to apply any of my jujitsu techniques in a self defense situation.

It's gotten to the point that I've started to teach myself BJJ and Judo (our style has a lot of judo techiques in it but no randori) with some of the students who come early to class. I'm also refusing to practice or teach kyoto geish or sankyu anymore. Now keep in mind I train for free out of a rec center, and I can't afford BJJ or Judo lessons. Am I wrong for refusing to teach these techniques? Do wrist locks really work in a real fight? Thanks for reading.

broken fingers
4/23/2006 12:37am,
... you are teaching BJJ?

Now keep in mind I train for free out of a rec center, and I can't afford BJJ or Judo lessons. Am I wrong for refusing to teach these techniques?

how are you teaching yourself judo/jujitsu? books? video?

you can't really expect much from a rec center. try working a deal with another school. my instructor lets one of the students take class in exchange for cleaning/maintenance.

mad_mally
4/23/2006 12:55am,
No I'm not teaching BJJ, I'm just trying out some stuff that I'm pick up out of books with some of the guys that come early to class. I'm a black belt and one of the instructors at this place. We rent a room from the rec center and we use it twice a week. For the most part I've been trying to find a way to work the traditional stuff we practice in sparring. I'd be happy if we just practiced randori, but we don't. The Karate is good though, and it definitely is the reason I'm still around.

DAYoung
4/23/2006 1:02am,
I take a marital art that's a bend of Goju karate and traditional Jujitsu (mostly small circle stuff), and I've recently become very pissed off at the self-defense techinques used in our system. Basically, ous self defense techiques are consist of striking our opponent then taking him down with a wrist lock, arm bar or throw. The karate part of our system is very good and resembles Kyokyshin style fighting, however we never practice our jujitsu techniques on a resisting opponet. Nor do we practice randori, or ne waza techiques. In short, I have no idea how to apply any of my jujitsu techniques in a self defense situation.

It's gotten to the point that I've started to teach myself BJJ and Judo (our style has a lot of judo techiques in it but no randori) with some of the students who come early to class. I'm also refusing to practice or teach kyoto geish or sankyu anymore. Now keep in mind I train for free out of a rec center, and I can't afford BJJ or Judo lessons. Am I wrong for refusing to teach these techniques? Do wrist locks really work in a real fight? Thanks for reading.

Might be worth talking to Goju Joe. He does a mix of Goju and Jujitsu, I think.

Steve
4/23/2006 1:03am,
Am I wrong for refusing to teach these techniques? Do wrist locks really work in a real fight? Thanks for reading.

wrist locks only work if you're able to grab someone's wrist in a fight (without getting punched in the face). It's perhaps easy to grab a wrist/arm, but to manipulate it against a resisting opponent is another story (as you know).

As to refusing to teach others what you know.... You know them better than we do but I'm of the idea that spreading knowledge around is a good thing.

MercyBeat
4/23/2006 1:07am,
I think the stuff works great on drunk friends. Or Drunks in general. Good stuff to know. The real trick to getting someone into a wrist/armlock is knowing when it is actually possible. If you go in thinking "i'm going to chicken wing this guy" you WILL look dumb trying.

AikiZenDragon
4/23/2006 1:13am,
sfe wrote...
"wrist locks only work if you're able to grab someone's wrist in a fight..."

common misconception...

most wrist locks are applied against a person grabbing your wrist to restrain or set up strikes... wrist locks can also be used in clinches and on the ground or after trapping (not grabbing) the other guys strikes...

mad_mally
4/23/2006 1:16am,
As to refusing to teach others what you know.... You know them better than we do but I'm of the idea that spreading knowledge around is a good thing.

I just don't want to teach people things that don't work. The last thing I want is one of my dojo brothers to get beat up in a street fight trying to throw a guy to the ground with a wrist techique, or even worst trying to crapple his way out of clinch with one. Does anyone know of any drills that I could work that would help to work some of these techiques in a realistic way?

Gumby
4/23/2006 3:14am,
Im not a big fan of Traditional Ju Jitsu- I was a 1 month white belt in BJJ and knew enough to submit my friend who was a TJJ black belt.

That being said, on to the subject of wristlocks. I find wristlocks can be usefull when you use them as a precursor to a fight. In just the same way that one person may walk up to another and suddenly sucker punch them, taking the initiative and throwing on a quick wristlock can work quite well.

Once the fight actually starts to unfold and both people are swinging for the fences, wraping each other up and trying to pry each others heads off, its time to move on to something else.

Fine joint control, such as those seen in small circle, are great for the time before an altercation escalates into a full out fight. Once adrenaline and strength start to enter the scenario, you're better off trying to work with something else. This is the time when its good to have a wrestling, judo, or bjj background.


You have to be practical here- a wristlock doesnt do a very good job of controlling your opponent because its such a small joint and theres so many angles of articulation at the wrist, elbow, and shoulder. Something like a body lock (looks like a bearhug) is a great way to effectively control someone, even if they've got a large weight advantage. The catch is that the wristlock your sensei teaches you looks a lot cooler than does that boring old bearhug your wrestling coach taught you in middle school. People have a misconception that really skilled fighters will look cool and fancy when someone decides to pick a fight with them. This is unfortunately not the case. Real fights are chaotic, ugly, and vicious. After you train for awhile, you'll once again be able to see the technique in a real fight, but it will never look as appealing or as cool as the move your average joe schmoe karate master will teach you.

coydog
4/23/2006 3:27am,
No I'm not teaching BJJ, I'm just trying out some stuff that I'm pick up out of books with some of the guys that come early to class. I'm a black belt and one of the instructors at this place. We rent a room from the rec center and we use it twice a week. For the most part I've been trying to find a way to work the traditional stuff we practice in sparring. I'd be happy if we just practiced randori, but we don't. The Karate is good though, and it definitely is the reason I'm still around.
your'e a black belt and you call it kyoto geish and sankyu?

mad_mally
4/23/2006 3:36am,
your'e a black belt and you call it kyoto geish and sankyu?

Well you know I failed the spelling part of my black belt exam, because we all know it's more important to know how to say and spell the name in japanese then it is to actually perform the technique.

Hannibal
4/23/2006 3:50am,
Does your karate school do any sparring at all ? Do they just do sparring with regards to striking ?

If your dojo does no sparring then I suggest looking for another that does. As for the grappling side of things then look for a Judo club. Judo is normally very cheap and you'll get a good grappling base. How much extra can you afford to spend ?

coydog
4/23/2006 3:51am,
I'm sure yer kyoto geish and sankyu is of superb black belt quality

mad_mally
4/23/2006 4:02am,
Does your karate school do any sparring at all ? Do they just do sparring with regards to striking ?

If your dojo does no sparring then I suggest looking for another that does. As for the grappling side of things then look for a Judo club. Judo is normally very cheap and you'll get a good grappling base. How much extra can you afford to spend ?

We just spar with regards to striking. Our Jujitsu techniques are limited to self-defense only, there's no randori.

To answer your last question, I don't have much to spend on training, I'm a law student and I work part time on the weekends (I'm at work now :icon_eek: ). I also take classes at my dojo twice a week (sometimes I teach or take part of a class other times I don't), but cross train every day with running and or weightlifting. The best part of my dojo is that the training is free, we're a small class, and two of my best friends take classes with me.

DAYoung
4/23/2006 4:06am,
We just spar with regards to striking. Our Jujitsu techniques are limited to self-defense only, there's no randori.

To answer your last question, I don't have much to spend on training, I'm a law student and I work part time on the weekends (I'm at work now :icon_eek: ). I also take classes at my dojo twice a week (sometimes I teach or take part of a class other times I don't), but cross train every day with running and or weightlifting. The best part of my dojo is that the training is free, we're a small class, and two of my best friends take classes with me.

Randori is essential - a great workout (though not a replacement for cross-training), an excellent way to test techniques, and often bloody good fun. An hour or two a week is well worth it.

Hannibal
4/23/2006 4:12am,
Mad.

I would suggest leaving and finding another martial arts school. Sparring is very important. Its okay to learn your techniques on a complient partner, but there comes a time where you have to do sparring. You have to learn how to apply the technique against a resisting opponant.

Your doing running and weight lifting which is fine but if your not doing any sparring, you may aswell not do martial arts. I say look for a Judo club. Judo is normally dirt cheap.