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View Full Version : Old dog, new tricks



patfromlogan
5/11/2003 7:24pm,
As an old karate guy, I really hate to say this for some reason.

I am practicing takedowns, shooting, and sprawling. GASP!

Wooh, now that wasn't so bad. I've done throws and contols for ever, but grappling style is new to me. My wrastling buddy was high school wrestler, as was dad and a brother. They do this at family gatherings and now I'm into it.

He is really good at putting my face in the ground or cranking my neck when I shoot. When we allow strikes I kill him because I know strikes well and he doesn't know ****. If he is any example of a good wrester who is ignorant of striking facing a decent stiker, wrestlers have almost no chance against decent black belt moves. I mean he doesn't know what to do with a hard roundhouse sweep/punch attack and if he shoots I can drop an elbow on his spine, double hammer his neck, knee, front snap his collar and so forth. Maybe Royce Gracie or Tank are fast and strong enough to somehow not have their ribs or back injured. He is strong, but I can stop him. When we only grapple, though he wins, he wins quickly with me on my back with the air knocked out from his drive into my gut. Now we are breaking down the attack and responses of grappling, using hard resistance with drills.

I still think that strikes are a better choice for small weaker people,to avoid being over powered on the ground. Strikes combines with body slamming takedowns are good, too. But these are what trad karate call their grappling techniques and they just aren't the same at all. Kyokushin and Goju and Wado systems all use arm bar and wrist take downs, and while these are good self defense exercises, they are nothing like playing with a grappler.

"Only IDIOTS think kata is useless because they don't know what they are talking about!!!" 5/6/03 by the the man himself, Asia

9chambers
5/11/2003 9:09pm,
In a shoot, your back shouldn't be hunched over. His head should be up and facing you. Here..

(from a previous thread)

Let me review for some of you what a penetration step and shoot is ::

The wrestler takes a crouched stance with his arms out in front like a boxer only he is hunched down low. His weight is on the balls of his feet and not his heels. His legs are set kind of like a runner waiting for the starters pistol. At the right moment (maybe after a simple feign, a slap or tangling with your arms up top, getting wrist or elbow control) his waist drops and he does this:

Penetration step:

Without curling up or shifting his weight back first (that would telegraph the shoot) he lifts his front foot, pushes off of his back foot and takes a big step forward. He keeps his back straight and his head and shoulders remain up - he doesn't dive down, he can still see you.

His high shoulders shield his head from the sides and he keeps his hands up in front of his face. His chest is over his front leg during the step.

Shooting:

He takes a big low step and lands on his foot - not his knee. His back leg slides along after him so he can take another step with that leg if his first knee does go to the mat - he is never really extended in an awkward stance.

During the shoot, his weight is suspended there over his shooting leg and his back leg is soon sliding forward so he is not extended ahead of his legs.

It isn't a dive or a football tackle. He is still facing you. He grabs your leg at the knee or ankle. If you don't sprawl back with your legs or resist the grab then he may go for the double-leg takedown or throw his shoulder into your hip and drive you to the mat. He may also scoop you up and dump you over his shoulder.

* Another defense against a shoot is to push out with your arms against his shoulders/head while you slide backwards keeping your legs under you.

panda
5/11/2003 9:21pm,
its all about the guillotine, watch the ufc match where tito gets choked and tapped when he left his neck a lil bit too exposed in a shoot and the other person fell back into a guard with his arms around titos head

panda
5/11/2003 9:27pm,
oops, i mean, sprawling before the guillotine is probably best... dont wanna be taken down too hard even if u have the headlock

patfromlogan
5/12/2003 1:32pm,
9chambers - thank you for the detailed info. Now I want to learn foot pins, they are effective.

"Only IDIOTS think kata is useless because they don't know what they are talking about!!!" 5/6/03 by the the man himself, Asia

Greese
5/13/2003 1:19am,
If you think the guillotine will do you much good, you are wrong. 90% of the time on a good shoot you will not get it locked in enough to do damage.
The sprawl should be your technique of last resort.
The best way that I counter a good shoot, is to drop my weight, slide one arm under the shoulder, the other grab onto the shirt, pants, whatever. Then I roll back, while extending my leg and following through on the motion. This puts me in the mount.
You can also pull one shoulder up, the other down, and then step across and throw.
Shoots are great on the uniformed, and a good tool in every grapplers arsenal even on skilled grapplers, but they like everything else have a counter.

panda
5/13/2003 1:39am,
"The sprawl should be your technique of last resort."

?? i dont know if u could justify saying its the last resort, most ppl train in sprawls if they r strike-based fighters

i'd still go for a guillotine style grab, if u get dumped then u can try to snake the other arm under his armpit and go for a neck crank, but maybe im being to linear in the defense, i could see how sidestep roll or throw would be good too



Edited by - panda on May 13 2003 01:40:07

Punisher
5/13/2003 2:06am,
I didn't take last resort thing to be an insult or something bad.

All it meant to me that the sprawl is a safe, effective fall back posistion you can go to if the opportunity for something else does present itself.

Your "last resort", should be the thing yo can most count on, not something spurned of of despriation. I always want the last trick I pull out of my bag to be my best.



Edited by - Punisher on May 13 2003 02:06:58

9chambers
5/13/2003 12:40pm,
There is a wrestling technique called the Gibson in which the choke you mentioned coupled with a sprawl is a defense against a shoot - only you can't crank the choke, that isn't legal, so you grab an arm and wrap it over your head and walk around for the mount/pin - but that only works if the idiot shoots with his head down - you aren't supposed to - finish reading the description of a standard shoot that I posted above.

C'mon, its only a couple of paragraphs.

Edited by - 9chambers on May 13 2003 12:42:23

panda
5/13/2003 2:46pm,
yea i agree guillotine only works on shoots that r sloppy, but most shoots are pretty sloppy, even in the ufc, its hard to keep ur head up and get enough power so alot of shoots become pseudo-tackles with the head down. i'll change my vote for andersen silva's flying knee as the best counter then, but the sprawl and then knees to the face tactic of wanderlei works pretty well too no? either way sprawl is one of the best defenses against the shoot still, just keep ur arms on their shoulders to prevent them from advancing for the takedown is good enough, then try to spin around on his back for a backmount is my other alternative usually

Greese
5/13/2003 5:30pm,
The sprawl is good. No doubt about it. However, I want a mount more than I want to be sprawled on someone. I have about 10 submissions I can do from the sprawl effectively. There is no limit to what I can do in a mount. I only use a sprawl if I can not get anything better.