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Blad3
5/07/2003 4:37pm,
Whould you TMA and TCC Martial Artists, especially Shooter and Wastrel, agree with the following? <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Anyone is welcome to give their opinion on this article.


"Tai Chi Chuan Self Defence Techniques are the practical applications of the individual styles of the Tai Chi Chuan Hand Form.

We know that practice of the Hand Form is good for health. Many 'masters' have a first class knowledge of the Hand Form, but little if any knowledge of how to apply the techniques contained therein. It is as if they learn to recite a beautiful poem without being able to understand the words.

Practice of Pushing Hands is not sufficient either, as this is only an exercise to train our bodies and minds in the Strategy of the Five Step Path and the Principles of the Thirteen Tactics. It is a preparatory step to learning the Self Defence Techniques. Furthermore, in a real fight our opponent will not engage in Pushing Hands with us, but will attack with fist and foot from all directions. If Pushing Hands practice was sufficient in itself, what is the purpose of the different styles of the Tai Chi Chuan Hand Form?

What we must try to do is to learn the application of these styles. Some Tai Chi Chuan 'masters' try to interpret the styles themselves or blindly follow the way the styles are used in the Hand Form, as they lack both the experience and knowledge of how to apply them practically. Individual interpretations of the styles from the Hand Form, in the absence of any practical fighting experience, can lead to disastrous results. The same applies where the Hand Form movements are blindly followed, as the requirements and purposes of the Hand Form are quite different from those of combat. If we are to learn the Self Defence Techniques properly we must follow a capable and experienced Tai Chi Chuan master. We also require a partner to take on the role of opponent. In the absence of another student the master himself will take on this role.

The next step is to learn the Self Defence Techniques, one at a time. At first we must practice slowly, learning how to respond and then counter attack when attacked by our opponent. With practice over time we will be able to use the techniques to respond to even the fastest and fiercest attacks of our opponent. Reaching this stage should make us confident of our ability to defend ourselves we need not fear any attacker. Once we have become well versed in one technique we can then move on in the same manner until we become well versed in all the Self Defence Techniques.

The final stage which we are aiming at is the ability to combine all the Self Defence Techniques and make them as one. This ability will only come with constant practice. What it means is that, following the Strategy of the Five Step Path and the Principle of the Thirteen Tactics, we should reach the stage where we apply the styles as a natural reflex action. In other words, just as there is no definite limit to the way we can be attacked, just so there should be no definite limit to the ways in which we respond to such attacks. It is senseless to think only in terms of 'in the event of attack X use response Y'. We must be able to mix and merge the techniques as the situation demands.

Tai Chi Chuan Self Defence Techniques also include wrestling techniques which may be used when grappling with our opponent at close quarters or in response to an attempted punch or kick. We must apply these wrestling techniques speedily, with sensitivity and softness, so that we can detect our opponent's force and use it against him while he is unable to detect ours.

We must learn to be soft and yielding where our opponent is strong, but to be strong where he is weak. In other words we must avoid his strong points and attack his weak points. If he is strong on the right side we must attack on the left. If his upper body is strong, we must attack his lower body.

To sum up, we must let our opponent move first, so that we can detect his weak points and use his own force against him in a devastating counter attack. If our opponent doesn't move, we should use feints or draw out his attack and then deal with it in the same way as before. To apply this method properly we need to practice the Self Defence Techniques frequently and under the watchful eye of an experienced master who can advise and guide us in the practical application of the theory.

This is only a brief introduction to Tai Chi Chuan Self Defence Techniques. One cautionary note we should heed is that such techniques are only of value if we are in a fit state of health to apply them. This means that we must do Internal Strength training to build up our health and strength because, even if our reactions are good, if we lack striking power we will be unable to counter attack effectively. This is a particularly dangerous state of affairs if we are facing more than one opponent."


=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Deadpan Scientist
5/07/2003 4:44pm,
Who wrote this? I know it's not you because the word "cautionary" is used...

Blad3
5/07/2003 4:57pm,
STFU <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

How would I know so much about Tai Chi CHuan anyway San Soo.

I have superior English literature skills anyway... <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

SamHarber
5/07/2003 5:06pm,
It doesn't sound quite like Dan Docherty, but it has his flavour. I'd guess it was written by one of his students.
I'd give cautious agreement, but I've no idea what the "Strategy of the Five Step Path and the Principle of the Thirteen Tactics" are.
Me? I just like to hit things.

Vapour
5/07/2003 6:21pm,
Taijiquan fundamental
Eight moves
-wardoff, press, push, roll-back, shoulder, elbow, takedown, split

Five directions
- forward, left, right, backward and centre

8+5=13

Idea is that you should be able to perform 8 movements in any directions. In more advance level, every movement should contain 13 elements. I know math don't exactly works but that my two cent.



Edited by - vapour on May 07 2003 18:23:00

Blad3
5/07/2003 6:24pm,
OK thanks, but I need Shooter on this one...I want to now his opinion of that self defence aspect of tai chi chuan...

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Deadpan Scientist
5/07/2003 6:49pm,
I have superior English literature skills anyway... <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>


Yeah right... Prove it

Sicilian Dragon
5/07/2003 7:49pm,
The article is uniformative and technically weak. By far, the worst part is quoted below:



To sum up, we must let our opponent move first, so that we can detect his weak points and use his own force against him in a devastating counter attack. If our opponent doesn't move, we should use feints or draw out his attack and then deal with it in the same way as before.


I wouldn't let anyone serious about hurting me "move first" if I could help it. It might be a strategy in a controlled sparring situation, but otherwise it's just a stupid idea.

SD

Xuanlong Xian
5/07/2003 7:57pm,
Actually, Dragon, letting the opponent move first is a common approach in arts geared toward self-defense instead of confrontational fighting. Particularly in "yielding" styles that seek to exploit the opponent's over-extension. This is where sensitivity (both visual and tactile) comes in, making it possible for you to "move second but arrive first".

WTDude
5/07/2003 8:06pm,
In my opinion, it depends on the range. If someone is out of kicking range (beyond distance where contact can be made), I prefer to wait for them to make a move. As soon as they are in range, however, I will be attacking, generally with a low kick and then closing the gap, depending on the oponents action.

You can't make a man by standing a sheep on its hindlegs but if you get a group of men together you can create a herd of sheep.

Shooter
5/07/2003 8:13pm,
You should maybe ask the author for their permission to post this here before you present it for debate. if you already have, no problem. If you haven't, it's at the very least, bad form. It could even be copyright infringement.

Blad3
5/07/2003 8:48pm,
You'd need to give me a test to at least help proove it, San Soo.

Shooter, people post articles all the time, I know what you're saying, but maybe I shoul dhave just posted the link?

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/

What do you think from the looks of this site Shooter?




=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Shooter
5/07/2003 8:57pm,
yeah, you should have just posted a link. or at least give the author's name. c'mon, man!...WTF?



Edited by - Shooter on May 07 2003 20:59:45

jungle-mania
5/07/2003 9:18pm,
FYI, Mas Oyama the creator of kyukushin Karate (bare knuckle) once conceded defeat to a tai chi master in Hong Kong who wish to remain annoymous. I am no practitioner of tai chi, but I have seen a really really fast moving old man practising tai chi in China and he jumped over my head.. and I am 6 ft 3 in.

Punisher
5/07/2003 9:21pm,
The whole “Is it better act or react” argument is another silly and clouded one in martial arts and fighting.

Both are really meant to be the same thing. There is no such thing as action or reaction. No matter what is happening you are doing both. You are reacting to the fact that the opponent is somehow at a disadvantage and acting to do something to exploit it.

Many martial artists that subscribe to the never throw the first punch theory do so for wrong reasons. They falsely believe that if someone makes an unexpected attack, they will be able to analyze, access, and respond properly to the attack, in a way that will prevent them injury. The assumption is conflict starts as soon as a guy makes his first physical movement. That assumption is false, conflict starts at the first, comment, yell, emotional outburst, look or whatever else is the reason for that ensuing physical movement. That is when you start looking for his weaknesses and start trying to minimize yours.

Every conflict that results in physical violence has a point of no return. There is no more time for talking, and now you have to act. If the guy is stupid enough to have a gaping hole in his defense, exploit it and take him out. If the guy doesn’t expose himself until he starts to strike, wait until then. This point of no return is a personal judgment call. And it can be different for both combatants. It is up to you to make a good faith examination of where the conflict is and where it might be going.

Obviously, if the guy goes crazy and starts to attack before you are “ready”, then you made poor judgment. If you starting swinging prematurely, you’re jumping the gun and may be labeled as the aggressor and subject to litigation or prosecution. One thing to remember though, is what is “self-defense” is determined by what you where thinking and what you did, i.e. the reasons for your actions and whether or not they were appropriate. If you start swinging thinking “This guy is a asshole, I’m going to shut him up!” it is not the same as “This is going to end badly, I could get hurt here. I have do something as soon as I can to end this situation before it gets worse.”

Some of the basic rules of fighting and self-defense are that the opportunity to defeat your opponent is provided by himself, and vice versa. It doesn’t matter if this opportunity is provided by his action or lack there of. Also, anything that you can do to someone can also be done to you. By “always” attacking first you may be setting yourself up to be countered and hurt. “Always” waiting until attacked, puts you at undue risk as well. Being flexible enough to act at whatever moment puts you at the best advantage, remembering going to jail for a long time is a definite disadvantage, is the only real way to go.

Blad3
5/07/2003 10:23pm,
Yes, I'd agree with somje of that Punisher.

Shooter, what do you think of it then?

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)