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Blad3
5/06/2003 8:52pm,
Summary (if you don't want to read the entire article, you can just reply to this) : Grappling should be everyone's base in good fighting, it's the most important aspect of hand-to-hand self defence. *It's far superior to striking.* Comparing the two is totally unfair due to the superiority of grappling and therefore becomes illogical.

Detailed Explanation :

If you're fighting in the street and you just want to KO somebody for the sole intent of KOing somebody, then maybe not. OK, we know that you have a chance to strike a couple of times (but with haymakers, let's be honest) to hopefully *possibly* KO somebody quickly. But if you really want to get better at fighting/defence, I think we all know by now that grappling is the basis of all good fighting. If you could choose one or the other - for fighting in the ring or on the streets - it should be grappling.

I *hate* to compare grappling to striking, I think the different systems should be compared seperately, because grappling is so many times more effective.

When someone begins to compare the two, to show why striking is more effective, it DOES show a lack of understanding of grappling, as does choosing striking over grappling. DON'T try to compare them it isn't fair for the striker. Look at any striker vs grappler fights, even go and fight a grapple with just striking and see the result - usually the grappler will win, if not almost always (there's room for chance with fighting of course.) Like in a San Shou vs Muay Thai match for instance, when the rules are equal - of course the San Shou guy has the advantage bacause of his takedowns!

There are too many "ring/MMA" examples to think of, but even if these don't count I don't think anybody should be under the delusion (and that is what they would be - deluded) that you're learning the best in self defence if you're not learning how to grapple - standing and on the ground.

A "Self Defence" or martial arts class of any type without or with minimal grappling is contradictory. Grappling is VERY necessary for Self Defence in a hand to hand situation, especially if the attacker knows grappling. Yes, I'll say it again, you can get a quick KO and you should learm how to hit HARD for this reason, but grappling is still what you need to know, it's far more important. However, my view of "real" self defence though, is that it should include running and weapons as a primary basis.

All the top MMAists are from grappling backgrounds *usually* - just look at all the top fighters - even the guys who are primarily strikers are EXCELLENT at grappling/wrestling too - especially Chuck Liddell and even Tim Sylvia, Vanderlei Silva and Anderson Silva amongst many others. These are some of the BEST fighters/top ranked people! Even then, the majority of the top people are primarily grapples: - Matt Hughes, Takanori Gomi, BJ Penn, Caol Uno, Jen Pulver, Carlos Newton, Sean Sherk, Murilo Bustamante, Genki Sudo, Mark kerr, Sakuraba, Frank Shamrock, Randy Cotoure, Noguiera, Fedor, Josh Barnett, Tito Ortiz, Arona, Henderson, Jeremy Horn, Matt Lindland, Ricco Rodriguez.

So I'm NOT just refering to groundfighting - I'm refering to the actual take down game as well. Your grappling game IS your stand-up grappling/wrestling game too.

"If you can't fight on the ground you can't fight" Pat Smith [you need to get it there first obviously but you will probably], an avid striker before he started NHB.

Though I'm not saying that striking isn't viable, that would be ridiculous, because striking is effective, and is a good "tool" to use and may even give you the advantage over another grappler. However that's not to say that it's necessary like grappling is either, but any sensible person would learn striking, or be aware of it at least in the ring. Striking is therefore neccesary for professional MMAists at least, because of the fact that two equal or almost equal grapplers can use their striking to their advantage, esepcially if one is better than the other, the weaker grappler can use his/her superior striking to compensate *maybe*.

Look at how many decision wins there have been because of the grappling "stale-mates" recently, even though one guy is better than the other at striking. See the Fedor vs Nogueira fight - Nog gets hit pretty bad, but Fedor is almost as good at him at grappling and better at striking and still couldn't KO Nog. Also see the albeit "unfair" (due to weight difference) Bustamante vs Chuck Liddell fight amongst MANY others (Busta may be better of the ground, but not at stand-up grappling/wrestling.) But then see what happens when a slightly superior grappler tries to stand with a much better kickboxer in the Rodriguez vs Sylvia fight you'll see Sylvia KOing Rodriguez in the first round. Of course you're going to take shots from somebody who is better at striking and as good at grappling or nearly as good at grappling as you are.

I'm NOT bias towards grappling even - I used to always be bias towards striking actually, but for a while now I've realised that that just isn't the correct way of thinking. Grappling is, and please excuse this Martial Art cliche, "Superior".

* None of this applies to the Godly superior BAJI! (tm) lord system, ruler of every system and soon the world.

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Blad3
5/06/2003 9:33pm,
Osiris is correct.

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Punisher
5/06/2003 9:39pm,
Blade,

This same topic is going on right now in TMA discussion under the highest kung-fu skill. There are many good points back and forth and I wished you had checked it out before, writing this really complete and apparently well thought out post. Just another reason the forums should be reorganized like Phrost announced a while ago.

I still feel you have it all backwards. Grappling should NOT be the base of all self-defense training. If you want to be able to fight at a high level and compete in professional MMA grappling is a must, but it is not the best road for beginners to follow.

Here is why. Leaving whether which is superior or not out of if, grappling is a lot more complicated and dangerous than striking. There are many more things to learn and many more things to keep track of. If your are going to grapple, you need to know what the hell you are doing, because once you grab someone you’re probably going to be in contact with them until the fight is over. You take away your primary defense mechanism, running like hell. The primary goal is not to ‘win” by defeating your attacker, it is to stay alive and get home in one piece.

Every time I hear about a “grappler” being taken out by a “striker” the excuse is almost always the same, “That grappler was stupid and used poor technique”. When it comes to grappling, a small mistake can lead to a big consequence, and the typical response to that is “That’s why you have to hit the gym and train harder”. And that is exactly the reason what grappling isn’t really viable for beginners.

A decent self-defense class can take a person and teach them the basics of striking and defending in about two hours. People can get immediate benefit from it, and have the chance to leave better off than when they walked in. What they learn won’t save them from an UFC Champion, but will give them a good chance against most people they are most likely to encounter. The is no way someone can get the same benefit or fully understand even the basics of a workable grappling game in that short of an amount of time.

Most people in this world art martial artists or trained fighters, so they don’t know jack **** about fighting or grappling. If they do grab you, it will be generally be in a very stupid way that isn’t dangerous in it’s self, i.e. grabbing your shirt to hold you for a punch. For almost everyone in the real world, grabbing a guy in a clinch, pummeling him knees and elbows, and then running to call the police is going to be more than enough. Even just knowing how to keep your guard up and minimize damage can keep you alive in a nasty situation.

I don’t consider grappling to be superior or inferior, just more complex. There can be a higher payoff, but there is also a higher risk associated with it. Just remember anytime you engage an opponent, anything you can do to him can also be done to you.

PizDoff
5/06/2003 9:48pm,
"All the top MMAists are from grappling backgrounds "

Emin Boztepe, William Cheung.....

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
(And my two creaky knees...)

Punisher
5/06/2003 9:50pm,
Blade,

I take back what I said about your post.

Everytime I read it, I see different things.

I realize my counter post doesn't really apply to most of what you wrote, and acutally agrees with half the stuff you said.

sorry



Edited by - Punisher on May 06 2003 21:52:38

Blad3
5/06/2003 9:54pm,
One thing though. Id say striking is the basis of fightng with grappling being used to facilitate it. Whos going to armbar when you can just pound their head in?

Oh, of course you can just pound the head - but you had to use grappling, and you're using grappling with striking when striking from the mount. You need to grapple to get out. Striking is secondary then, because you;re using grappling in the first place. It's considered a submission in MMA , and as I say you should still learn striking. Say you hurt your hand etc? you see a good opportunity for an armbar/americana(keylock) or a choke - you can take that too. Takedowns may finish the person off straight away even.

Punisher:


The is no way someone can get the same benefit or fully understand even the basics of a workable grappling game in that short of an amount of time. Incorrect, you can learn grappling quite quickly.


Grappling should NOT be the base of all self-defense training. If you want to be able to fight at a high level and compete in professional MMA grappling is a must, but it is not the best road for beginners to follow. That's what some may have you bleieve, but it isn't true.


Every time I hear about a “grappler” being taken out by a “striker” the excuse is almost always the same, “That grappler was stupid and used poor technique”. When have you even seen that happen? usually both know grappling in MMA.

If you can strike then you can probably run away, if you can't run away it;s probably because they've grabbed hold of you.

Oh my Punisher! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>



=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Edited by - Blade Windu on May 06 2003 21:58:08

Blad3
5/06/2003 9:56pm,
OK OK, PizDoff, you got me there. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


Blade,

I take back what I said about your post.

Everytime I read it, I see different things.

I realize my counter post doesn't really apply to most of what you wrote, and acutally agrees with half the stuff you said.
Ok, then you may as well ignore my previous reply <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

PizDoff
5/06/2003 9:56pm,
Osiris (2nd post) is right.


Piz Doff is right......Wing Whatever..... is a semi grappling style.....

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
(And my two creaky knees...)

Blad3
5/06/2003 10:00pm,
WC is usually considerd more of a strikign system, but I agree that some systems are more grappling liek than others.

Pizdoff you have got to usegrapplign to get the moutn and the slam/throw may finish the person right away...



=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

PizDoff
5/06/2003 10:01pm,
Blade go to sleep!!!!!!!

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
(And my two creaky knees...)

Vapour
5/06/2003 10:04pm,
If you reshape your question into standup v.s. ground work instead of striking v.s. grappling, you get different answer.

Blad3
5/06/2003 10:06pm,
What? I'm talking about stand-up when I say grappling, not just ground fighting...

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Shooter
5/06/2003 10:09pm,
This just in; The sky is blue...Repeat; The sky is blue.

I am correct. Also, *imo*, kindling is the best thing to use after your tinder is lit.

You see, this isn't an opinion. It's a truism.

*Great "article"!* LOL



Edited by - Shooter on May 06 2003 22:10:31

deus ex machina
5/06/2003 10:19pm,
No, THE KNIFE is SUPERIOR

~
danny

Shooter
5/06/2003 10:26pm,
no I wouldn't.

TaeBo_Master
5/06/2003 10:31pm,
Dammit Deus.... getting soft again.

--A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --