PDA

View Full Version : Thought Provokers For Non-Sport Martial Artists



Pages : [1] 2

Sheol
8/19/2002 9:37am,
What did the individuals who coined the term "martial art" think of when they came up with it? Did they think of gi clothed fighters tussling on a mat or trunk-wearing fighters in a ring? I hope not, because almost everything we see isn't "an art suitable for war".

One of my common musings has been about the lack of science in the martial arts. It has always disturbed me that what passes as the martial arts is so often full of dogma which assumes much, but never proves anything (the too dangerous to practice, excuse). I have even seen the EXCUSE that it's a "martial art, not a martial science"! The focus of a martial art really is about killing, maiming, or otherwise "neutralizing" the enemy, isn't it? This means that we should study the human body for weak points/vitals. Not a new practice, right? Yet, in this day and age, it's hard to find info on it. Why? The Greeks studied the human body for that purpose, in addition to medicine. The Romans, Italians, and Spaniards did the same. The Chinese are famous for it. Yet, if you look for the information today, all you find are Dim Mak or Chin Na references with all of the fairy tales that come with it. There's some good information but a lot of nonsense to wade through. Ultimately, if you want accurate, unbiased information, you have to go to medical journals. WHY? The doctor's purpose is to treat somebody, so he needs the info. The purpose of the martial arts is to hurt somebody, so why isn't the information there for the martial artist? There's more to taking out the human body than kidney shots, neck strikes, and groin kicks.

What about the science of combat method itself? The Spaniards had Destreza prior to the 1500's which used complicated, but scientifically based theories about movement, attack, and defense to establish proper, very simple, and effective movement, strikes, and parries. It served them well but disappeared after the 1800's with the gradual death of the blade in favor of the firearm. There are only so many ways a man can move and anecedotes about real-life fights share so much in common, regarding defensive and offensive movements (usually that the best defense IS a good offense). It's all very pretty to see complicated techniques, but simplicity is inevitably the victor, this too is a common theme. Science and reasoning is preferable to mysticism and dogma in the all of the industries of the world, except religion and martial arts. This is both disturbing and frustrating for individuals looking at the martial arts for what it was originally for: non-sport combat.

Perhaps it is best to call what I am looking for as MARTIAL SCIENCE, not the MARTIAL ARTS. I would like to hear what you guys really think about this, particularly those of you that work in life-threatening occupations.

Sheol
8/19/2002 10:33am,
A few months ago, I had a sad experience while I was on my way to Laredo, Texas for some training with Maitre Paturel and Professeur Buitron. Deciding to call a cab to take me to the terminal, I was picked up at home by a female taxicab driver. I'm not a talkative person by nature, so I only gave her directions and then shut up. About half-way there, she tried to start up a conversation by asking about my cane (Asia knows why I have one). I explained to her that I hurt my leg. End of discussion, so I thought. A little bit later, she asks me if I know anything about martial arts. (Strangely enough, when you look Asian, you get these questions.) I asked her why she was asking and then she responded that she wanted to learn self-defense. THIS, as you might guess, spurred my interest. I ask her why she believes that she needs it, asking whether it was the area that she lives in or the places that she goes. She told me that it was because of her job.

I hadn't really thought of cab-driving as being a life-threatening occupation, though after she said it, I knew why. Apparently, she had been assaulted on no less than FOUR occasions in only TWO MONTHS. Robbery was a motive every time, but two of them also involved attempted rape. Two involved guns and two involved knives. My first recommendation was that she change careers, but she was committed in her leasing contract for her cab and couldn't see a way to get out. I then truthfully explained what I did, what I studied, and told her that I honestly couldn't recommend a SINGLE martial art for her situation.

Think about this. She has an exposed profile as a victim. Any potential assailant has PLANNED to attacker her. She works in a confined space. Due to union things, she ends up with graveyard shift pickups. On top of it all, she is a woman and, therefore, a preferred victim.

In the end, I simply explained to her the situation that she was in. I pointed out the danger of cooperating with attackers, particularly those that want you to go somewhere. I told her that OC-Spray in anything less than a can of bug-spray was useless, plus it was unreliable and a risk to her, as well. She told me that she had actually sprayed one of her attackers with pepper spray, right in his face, but he just LAUGHED at her and hit her. In the end, the best recommendation that I could give her (aside from changing jobs) was to invest the money in a bullet-resistant partition to separate her from the passenger compartment, plus replacing her front windows with bullet-proof plastic. Even then, I reminded her, she would be exposed if she got out to knock on a door, so I reminded her that she probably couldn't be sure of her passenger. I told her as much as I thought would be useful, even after we had arrived at the terminal, before I left the cab.

I don't know if sharing this story is necessary, but I think that it reminds us of the REAL dangers in this world. Further, it should encourage us to REALLY look at our martial art without the distorting effect of emotions and romanticized images. For some of us, THIS IS NOT A GAME. THIS IS FOR KEEPS!

Gezere
8/19/2002 10:38am,
Martial Arts is an apt term. Broken down it means "Skills pretaining to War", as you well no. The problem is a lot of pple when they hear the term MA think of gi clad pple doing kata, Bruce Lee, and a majority anything ASIAN!!! The do not realize that Firearm training is a MA, plotting an air strike is a MA, or even setting an ambush.

All the things you listed fall under the term MA. Many pple agree with the scientific approach to combat. However the image of MA has been so distorted that pple don't want to see it. I tell die hard TMA guys that once you strip away all the religious, mystic, "character building" garbage you are left with basicly DEFEATING THE ENEMY and that is universal.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

hockey chick
8/19/2002 11:31am,
sheol, you could have recommended a style that includes joint manipulation and pressure points, but since she has her back turned to her attacker and has no room to do anything, I don't think anything would help. If she thought she could defend herself she might try something and end up enraging her attacker to do further harm. She should get a concealed weapon license and a gun.

I work in a very dangerous profession and my limited MA knowledge helps me immensely with 'difficult' people. But I also always have a crew or a partner with me, I'm not alone. I've never been in the position where I didn't have someone close by I could call for help if I needed it.

I don't think I answered your original question, though, sorry.

PeedeeShaolin
8/19/2002 11:49am,
Dont recommend ANY art for that type of situation uless you want to get your friend killed.

I agree %100 with all of your comments. You just say them in a much nicer way than I would. I've had it just about to the BRIM with all this NONSENSE. I cant even READ anything by Royal Dragon without my blood pressure going through the ROOF.

I think that this game is 'for keeps' for EVERYONE. I TRUELY cannot teach a student something I KNOW is useless without worrying that I'm giving them a false sense of security.

If I controlled martial arts I would make teachers have a disclaimer on most techniques. Something like:

"This looks REALLY cool and its fun, but I wouldnt try it if you were grabbed for real."

Alot of these guys just dont want to face the music. I had to. I was a black belt and taught classes regularly. I knew Forms and taught Tamashiwara(wood breaking), I've broken bricks. When I saw all those things really werent worth too much I left and started searching for things that ARE worth the price tag in realism.

It makes me mad now to see instructors making frail women break pine boards and telling them:

"That was an attackers nose."

They never mention that AFTER she breaks the attackers nose he's going to break HER. Or HIM for that matter.

People are content to teach ancient training ways and all out CRAP in the face of EVERYTHING that was learned regarding the USELESSNESS of them. Money and the fact that they REFUSE to stop being called SIFU or SENSEI is what stops them from getting rid of ALL that nonsense and giving their students what they actually paid for: Real knowledge of the anatomy of an attack.

"Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker

Sheol
8/19/2002 12:07pm,
hockey chick:
"sheol, you could have recommended a style that includes joint manipulation and pressure points"

A good way to get her killed. Joint manipulation assumes a successful grab... either by the perpetrator or the victim. If the perps. have weapons, which they did on all four times, she would have succeeded in provoking the attacker to shoot or stab/cut her... probably multiple times. As for pressure points, there's no nicer way to say it other than they (1) don't work consistently, (2) can also provoke an immediate violent response. In her case, the assailants all had deadly weapons....

"but since she has her back turned to her attacker and has no room to do anything, I don't think anything would help."

Two of the attacks were from the back seats. One attack was from the front driver-side door and one from the front passenger side door. She is vulnerable to threats from all sides.

"She should get a concealed weapon license and a gun."
I really thought about it, but given that she would be ambushed without a drawn firearm, her chances of having the weapon taken away or her being shot/stabbed/cut before the weapon was drawn and ready, are extremely high. She had a higher chance of putting her firearm in her assailant's posession. Further, there's the matter of her willingness to kill. I believe that I did ask her that if she had a gun, whether she would be willing to shoot to kill. Her reply was pretty much negatory, wanting to threaten with the gun or shoot a warning shot. I told her that she might as well buy a starter pistol if she wanted to do that. Not a good CW candidate.

Thanks for the post, though.

RellBound
8/19/2002 12:16pm,
The problem is no matter what you know if the attacker knows what he is doing they will get the advantage of you. Case point is Vanderlai Silva. Three guys carjacked him in Brazil. All he did was hand everything over and let them drive off. Smartest thing he probably could have done since the were armed to begin with.

The Oldschool is here....and I'm going to Rell in a Randbasket!

Sheol
8/19/2002 12:26pm,
Peedee Shaolin:

"I agree %100 with all of your comments. You just say them in a much nicer way than I would."

You say that because you don't know how many times I delete entire paragraphs because I REALLY start going at and just refrain from posting because of the insanity of it all.

"People are content to teach ancient training ways and all out CRAP in the face of EVERYTHING that was learned regarding the USELESSNESS of them."

It's one thing for con-men to bilk money out of people. It is something entirely different when the instructor is sincere. Which is sadder, that they don't re-evaluate their entire art (and attitude), or that they actually believe that they are teach, training, and using their art the way it was originally meant.

Just letting you know that you're not alone in being fed-up. I just have this hope that just MAYBE I can make a difference with all these posts. Yeah... I must be delusional.

Sheol
8/19/2002 12:33pm,
Rellbound:


The problem is no matter what you know if the attacker knows what he is doing they will get the advantage of you. Case point is Vanderlai Silva. Three guys carjacked him in Brazil. All he did was hand everything over and let them drive off. Smartest thing he probably could have done since the were armed to begin with.

You might know that, I might know that, and every single person on this forum might know that, but how many times do you hear of "street-smarts" being taught at schools.... Self-defense, indeed.

Save your money. Buy a second-chance vest. It's more practical.

hockey chick
8/19/2002 12:51pm,
sheol, true, the only solution is to avoid putting yourself at risk. I don't advocate guns (usually just escalates the danger), most people in stressful situations freeze anyways, so what's the use. I think she should quit, flip burgers or something. Is the lease on the car more important than her life? Anything else you can suggest, self-defense wise, is more for psychological well-being. It's the feeling of self-confidence it can give you; most theives are cowards and are looking for the weak. But it is better to cooperate, they are in control, desperate, with nothing to lose while I have everything to lose, my life.

Sheol
8/19/2002 1:08pm,
hockey chick:


But it is better to cooperate, they are in control, desperate, with nothing to lose while I have everything to lose, my life.


For years, police have advocated cooperation, but that is changing to an extent, since cooperation is the WORSE thing that you can do in many situations. If someone holds you up at gun-point. They have an advantage, but they don't want to kill you yet. They want something. If immediately giving them your wallet/purse/car doesn't satisfy them or it isn't what they ask for, THEN YOU ARE IN GREAT DANGER OF LOSING YOUR LIFE. At that point, they are probably looking for a way to kill you without attracting attention. Cooperating with them puts you where your ATTACKER wants you. Now, you are likely to be killed, whatever you do or say. Most violent criminals are repeat offenders. Killing you wouldn't even phase them... but they still don't want to be caught. You, unfortunately, are a loose end to be taken care of.

Royal Dragon
8/19/2002 1:31pm,
Peedee, Love you SmmmoooooCH!!!!

Sheol,
I have to say you gave great advice. I have to say though, if her lease on the Cab wasn't up it does not matter. Lots of people lease cars, she can just use it as her daily driver till it's over, thats all.

Second, a woman driving a cab at night for a living is asking to get hurt. I'm betting she would be safer being a hooker. At least the deal is clear from the start.

I don't know about Pepper spray enough to comment, only that the girl I'm with now has a pepper foam, and she zingged me with it once as a joke, and I hit the ground completely incapcitated

How that would effect a drugged up freak with no feelings, I'm not sure.

The way I look at it,she is in a very dangerous job. I would sugjest getting another job driving commercially if she likes to drive so much. A local deliverie job will pay the bills with no lease, and company's often supplie the truck. Many times they are small and don't require a CDL to boot.

Royal Dragon
8/19/2002 1:48pm,
PeeDee,
I think you misunderstamnd me. Your looking at what I am say through the filter of whatever wannabee pretending to be "Traditional" Hack trained you.

The main thing I'm trying to get across here is the main stream schools that often CLAIM to be traditional are a very far cry from it.

Their use of forms is all wrong, and none of the ones I have seen have a clue is to what they are, or how to se them to train people.

Thier use of stance training is wrong. The fact that there are people one here that think you can read wile doing them show me just how bad their teachers were.

The fact that you yourself in this very post think breaking boards is a traditional actiity shows how poorly you were trained.

The point I'm tryig to get across is real traditional Kung Fu is quite a bit more like Modern MMA's than you think.
Yes I strongly beleive in certain traditional training methods, like stance training. But that is only because I was fortunet enough to have learned how to do them the right way, and realy use them for conditioning effectively. It seems from what I am reading here that what is commonly taught as stance training is about as use less as weight lifting just the bar with no weights on it. All the "Teeth" have been taken out of it.

people site drilling techniques and bag work and kicking pads as being essential to MMA training, especially if your a Muy Tai fighter, and what they don't realize is real honest traditional Kung Fu arts DO do this stuff, quite a bit I might add. It's not, nor was it ever, all forms and stances. Schools that teach that are NOT Traditonal martial arts, they are bad copies of certain exercises that aren't even being taught right.

You want to know what traditional Kung Fu is?? Add some forms work and stance trainig to XYZ MMA school along with Iron body skills (NOT as intense as Muy Tai guys do though). At least enough to harden the body for blocking punches and hands enough so you don't break them when hitting someone.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, One thing I failed to mention in my last post, is if this woman stared learning the baddest art on th planet right now, there would be no way she would be prepared for her next attacker by the time her lease was up. And ther is no way to predict when the next attacker will come.

It takes time and dedication to master the skills, and even more time to develop and condition the body to actually have the raw strength esssary to make it work against a resisting attacker. She's better off bullet proofing the vehicle, or geting a different job, Sheol said.



Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 19 2002 13:53:31

hockey chick
8/19/2002 2:38pm,
sheol, if you don't cooperate, what do you do? Fight? An attacker wants something, true, money for his next fix or whatever, but they don't want to kill you, only psychopaths and serial killers do that, and they don't ask for your wallet or car. If you frustrate an attacker, the situation will escalate. When it comes to talking about drug addicts, rape victims, and assault victims I know what I am talking about, and victims who fight back, pay drastically. What would you suggest besides cooperation? I'm curious.

Royal Dragon
8/19/2002 2:53pm,
Hockey Chick,
I think the issue here is the skill level of the defender VS the skills of the attacker. One of the big problems is when someone goes to fight back they are NOT dealing with the average thug like most suposed, so called "Tradtionoal" schools say. Your dealing with hardened criminals who have persued their own brand of reality combat training most of their lives and are damm good at it.

No way an average victem is going to be able to handle that, and the criminal knows this ahead of time. In fact they know how to identify an easy target from someone who will give them living hell or maybe kill them. Guess who they pick.

They key is to short circut the victem signals to begin with. The best way to do this is find a good hard core reality based school and transform yourself into a force to be reconed with. Believe it or not, but this will deter most attacks. If it does not you will have atleast put yourself on even ground and have a much better time fighting your way out of a situation, at least enough to runaway.



Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 19 2002 14:55:43

Sheol
8/19/2002 3:27pm,
sheol, if you don't cooperate, what do you do? Fight? An attacker wants something, true, money for his next fix or whatever, but they don't want to kill you, only psychopaths and serial killers do that, and they don't ask for your wallet or car. If you frustrate an attacker, the situation will escalate. When it comes to talking about drug addicts, rape victims, and assault victims I know what I am talking about, and victims who fight back, pay drastically. What would you suggest besides cooperation? I'm curious.


If an assailant is telling to you to do something, then that's an indication that he needs you to do something that (a) will make whatever he was to do safer for HIM (NOT FOR YOU) and (b) he cannot or is unsure of being able to MAKE you do. In other words, he's asking you to make his commission of the crime easier and to compromise your own safety. JUST DON'T DO IT. If you are driving, get to a public area with as many people as possible and, hopefully, police or security guards. No matter what he says or promises, JUST DRIVE. Honk your horn and attract attention to yourself. If he's driving, do whatever it takes to GET OUT of that vehicle... preferably where there are people.

Whatever the situation, beg, plead, talk to him about your family, your dog, promise the earth, moon, and stars, but DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN A WORSE SITUATION BY COOPERATING! Lie? YES! Being uncooperative is MUCH MORE than fighting. It is DENIAL OF OPPORTUNITY. You see, if he intends to kill you, no matter where you are, the simple truth is that your chances of dying are the same, no matter if you cooperate or not. If he is looking for an opportunity to kill you with minimal risk to himself, then your best chance of survival is to DENY him the opportunity by being uncooperative. If he isn't sure about killing you, being non-cooperative doesn't really worsen your chances. Physically attacking him WILL. That is why you maintain dialogue. You want him to believe that he still doesn't have to kill you. If all else is failing and your assailant is in complete control, well then I would take any chance I could get, even if I was outmatched.