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odd_lifter
2/27/2006 5:18pm,
i read in the gracies their book on bjj bjj became popular almost overnight because of the ufc s. the idea is the grapplers had a major advantage, because when there are no rules, the fight will go to grappling automaticly. what made bjj superior to wrestling was the submissions according to the book. are you telling me there were no other grappling arts with lots of submissions? or was in reality the true cause that they were exceptional fighters?

not a troll, please don't flame

Camus
2/27/2006 5:25pm,
a better question would be:

"What distinguishes other submission wrestling systems from BJJ?"

JohnnyS
2/27/2006 5:49pm,
I believe there's a few things that distinguished BJJ from other grappling systems, especially at the time of the first UFC's:
1) Straight away people were taught how to apply grappling to fighting. I've trained a little Judo, but was never once taught how to throw the guy when he was trying to punch me. In BJJ, you learnt to cover up, do a (crappy, but workable) takedown, get mount, punch and finish the guy with a back choke in the first class.
2) BJJ was taught in a systematic fashion. There is a clear hierarchy of positions, and a set progression to get from one position to another.
3) It had a history of fighting and that fight knowledge was passed down to the next generation. You knew that what you were taught worked because you'd seen it working on videos like Gracie in Action, the UFC and other fight videos.

Darkpaladin
2/27/2006 5:51pm,
BJJ has more emphasis on the guard in groundwork. While still not the greatest position to be in, being on your back doesn't have to be a completely helpless situation. Also the guard isn't exclusive to BJJ (a fight between any grappling style or styles can end up with a competitor in the guard), but a high percentage of training time goes into guardwork. The other big claim to fame is that a small BJJ fighter can defeat much larger opponents, but that's a bit of a marketing ploy. I'm 215 and I wouldn't want to go against someone weighing at 250, as I'm sure a 180 pounder wouldn't want to wrestle me optimally.

Wrestlers (Catch, folkstyle, submission) do not like to be on their backs as much, and subsequently their scrambling, takedowns, and ability to stay on top are very sharp. I don't know too much about sambo, so I can't say much about it. I wouldn't consider Judo a "wrestling" style, but the groundgame is similar to BJJ, only not as emphasized. However the projection throws pack a punch, as getting dumped on your head or back from 5 feet isn't fun.

Also, the first UFCs had a big BJJ spin on them (thanks to Rorian Gracie, who created it). Truth be told, any grappler had as much a chance as Royce to win against the pure striking competition. Ken Shamrock for instance was doing well, losing to Royce early due to Royce using his gi for a choke (something Shamrock wasn't familiar with).

Yrkoon9
2/27/2006 5:51pm,
Submission wrestling usually emphasizes submission over position.

BJJ emphasizes position over submission. Mainly so that BJJ can strike effectively. This is the essence of BJJ. The competitive aspect of BJJ might hide this fact but the reality is never completely obscured.

Darkpaladin
2/27/2006 5:54pm,
Submission wrestling usually emphasizes submission over position.

BJJ emphasizes position over submission. Mainly so that BJJ can strike effectively. This is the essence of BJJ. The competitive aspect of BJJ might hide this fact but the reality is never completely obscured.

Heh, I still can't wrap my mind around getting a submission without good position (damn bjj training :laughing7 )

But yeah, I guess there are strikes hidden in the secret bjj kata.

Camus
2/27/2006 5:54pm,
Ken Shamrock for instance was doing well, losing to Royce early due to Royce using his gi for a choke (something Shamrock wasn't familiar with).

The gi wasn't exactly sham's only weakness. . .

Darkpaladin
2/27/2006 5:58pm,
The gi wasn't exactly sham's only weakness. . .

Well, nobody's perfect.

odd_lifter
2/27/2006 6:16pm,
thanks

plasma
2/27/2006 6:16pm,
I always though the uses of the Guard and fighting from your back.

Yrkoon9
2/27/2006 6:33pm,
No...

Camus
2/27/2006 6:42pm,
I always though the uses of the Guard and fighting from your back.

ninjas need to stfu about grappling

meng_mao
2/27/2006 6:47pm,
Frank Shamrock told me that in his mind, his style of sub wrestling was about putting tactical pressure on your opponent, to outpace him until you found your opening, while BJJ is a more defensive art where you look to lure your opponent into making the mistake for you.

Tacitus
2/27/2006 6:49pm,
Yrkoon9 said:


BJJ emphasizes position over submission. Mainly so that BJJ can strike effectively. This is the essence of BJJ. The competitive aspect of BJJ might hide this fact but the reality is never completely obscured.

This is a very interesting way to put it. I've never had it explained like that. Would you elaborate?

Yrkoon9
2/27/2006 7:04pm,
What do you want me to elaborate on?

BJJ emphasizes position over submission. You don't see BJJ guys go for an ankle lock while being mounted. Which is something a submission guy would try. BJJ guys would go for a reversal and then work a guard pass to get into sidecontrol and eventually mount.

The objective in BJJ is to improve your position until you can strike effectively and your opponent cannot. It is then that a submission is inevitable as the helpless opponent will simply turn his back.

Look at the knee-on-belly position. Although we give it 2pts in the competitive setting it really isn't worth a **** submission wise. Side control provides many more sub settings. But knee on belly can drop some bombs. Let us not not forget that en route to 2pts.

I have many examples. But some of the purest striking in BJJ you see comes from the old school Vale Tudo people. Rickson, Carlson students, etc. They aren't looking to score points on your ass. They are looking to drop bombs on your face and make you turn over.

UpaLumpa
2/27/2006 7:38pm,
This is a question I asked elsewhere but was derailed by an ignorant kung fu guy who didn't understand what the words he used meant.
Was there submission wrestling around in the US prior to bjj's arival?

Sure there was the mythical catch but it's too rare to really consider.
Most of the sub wrestling schools I've come across are either bjj derived (e.g. 10th planet) or take a lot from and came about after bjj (e.g. Jackson's).