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JKing
2/13/2006 1:27am,
Carry over from the thread about weak excuses against boxing.

POSTED by Shu2jack

I have a theory.....

Even if the majority of TKDists/Karate people/what ever train to fight in a ring, they would still not get any respect. Even if it was non-stop, full contact, punches to the head allowed competition, and forms/one-steps were taught no respect would be given. We would told that we were not training in Karate/TKD, but training like a kick boxer or something.

Karate/TKD DOES mean sub standard martial to a large number of people. If you suck it is because of your art. If you kick ass it will because you copied off the training methods of styles that work/your school isn't the majority, so doesn't really fit/THOSE AREN'T KARATE PUNCHES!!! or TKD DOESN'T PUNCH!!!

So yeah.....get used to it Hannibal.

I asked him to verify that he does ATA tkd, and he said yes. He asked what of it. I said


Lets forget the numerous posts on why TKD sucks. Lets talk about the fact that you're in ATA tkd.

He asked to elaborate and so in order not to derail the thread I have made a new post.

My argument is this: TKD, though like everything doesn't 100% suck, has a high percentage of mcdojism/bullshido. The ATA organization has also been discussed as a mcdojo/bullshido organization. End argument.

I think this subject has been covered alot but i'd rather post a new thread than derail someone elses.

It is Fake
2/13/2006 1:37am,
Okay, but what is your point. Right now you are just stating an opinion.

You need to ask some specific questions or it will end up in trollshido.

JKing
2/13/2006 1:41am,
I really could care less if it gets moved to trollshido. I'm waiting for Shu2jack to come in with a response (hopefully he sees the thread). I really dont know how to word this thread responding to his question without making it seem like a troll job - so if he posts it'll put context to it. If not then away it goes.

Cassius
2/13/2006 1:42am,
taekwonpenis.

Thread over.

JKing
2/13/2006 1:44am,
taekwonpenis.

Thread over.


you win.

Threads over lets go home.

Shu2jack
2/13/2006 1:45am,
Carry over from the thread about weak excuses against boxing.

POSTED by Shu2jack

Quote:
I have a theory.....

Even if the majority of TKDists/Karate people/what ever train to fight in a ring, they would still not get any respect. Even if it was non-stop, full contact, punches to the head allowed competition, and forms/one-steps were taught no respect would be given. We would told that we were not training in Karate/TKD, but training like a kick boxer or something.

Karate/TKD DOES mean sub standard martial to a large number of people. If you suck it is because of your art. If you kick ass it will because you copied off the training methods of styles that work/your school isn't the majority, so doesn't really fit/THOSE AREN'T KARATE PUNCHES!!! or TKD DOESN'T PUNCH!!!

So yeah.....get used to it Hannibal.



I asked him to verify that he does ATA tkd, and he said yes. He asked what of it. I said


Quote:
Lets forget the numerous posts on why TKD sucks. Lets talk about the fact that you're in ATA tkd.



He asked to elaborate and so in order not to derail the thread I have made a new post.

My argument is this: TKD, though like everything doesn't 100% suck, has a high percentage of mcdojism/bullshido. The ATA organization has also been discussed as a mcdojo/bullshido organization. End argument.

I think this subject has been covered alot but i'd rather post a new thread than derail someone elses.

I am not really sure what is being asked or what you exect from me in terms of a response.

I agree that "McDojoism" runs rampant in TKD and the ATA is no exception. I think the ATA is more susceptable to "McDojoism" because of how they set their system up and I do believe there are instructors who abuse it...though I am not going to give any names.

In itself, I do not think the ATA is a bullshit organization. I do like how they are organized. While I do not totally agree with their philosophy in regards to what they are mainly interested in teaching (and most people here totally disagree with it), I understand why they have it and I can apprciate it.

As you said, not 100% of something sucks. I am not saying the place where I train is "the ****", but I am generally happy with what I receive in terms of training at the ATA school I attend. The class room sparring is continueous (we don't stop for points...or even call them) with light-moderate contact depending on who you are sparring, I like the mental attitude used for the adult black belts by the head instructor, we spend as much time with punching (not the chambered kind) as we do kicking, and everyone there seems to keep a realisitic view of what they are learning.

JKing
2/13/2006 1:53am,
How often do you go moderate - hard (not full mind you) contact? What qualifications do your instructors carry (Very important in my opinion)?

Statements should be based off experience. We have an ATA tkd school right in my little town and thats where my viewpoints come from. Do you feel that your school is an exception to the "norm" of ata tkd? Or do you feel that ata tkd just gets a bum rep?

This thread really is to discuss ATA tkd, and that subject related to Shu2jack.

Shu2jack

Ok, why don't you start us off? I am more than happy to answer questions.

Mostly related to this. Again, I am just trying not to derail the other thread by posting a new one here

Shu2jack
2/13/2006 2:17am,
How often do you go moderate - hard (not full mind you) contact?

Every class. Unless there is no one around my size, which isn't often.

Our rule is that we can hit as hard as we want as long as we are not purposely trying to hurt each other, we are under control, and respect for your partner/others on the floor is being maintained.




What qualifications do your instructors carry (Very important in my opinion)?

If you are talking about non-ATA qualifications, then I don't know. He doesn't teach non-ATA material so I don't see the problem.

What are you looking for in terms of qualifications? In terms of ATA qualifications, he has been in the art for over 25 years, holds many different positions in the organization, etc. As far as teaching ATA TKD, he is more than qualified.


Statements should be based off experience. We have an ATA tkd school right in my little town and thats where my viewpoints come from. Do you feel that your school is an exception to the "norm" of ata tkd? Or do you feel that ata tkd just gets a bum rep?

I do feel the place I train at, and the place I teach at (I run a small ATA club) is in the top percentile in terms of ATA schools and standards. No promising of black belts (took me 5 years to earn mine), no required long contracts, no huge fees (when I started it was $45/mo. and the price hasn't risen that much), my instructor has a full time job and teaches TKD as a "hobby", what I have been taught in terms of technique is sound, etc.

I feel the ATA receives more bad rep than what it deserves, but it still deserves it's share. I think there are many good schools and instructors out there, but I also think there is a lot of bullshit in the ATA.

Would I recommend the ATA to some one? My answer would be the same as if some one asked me about a boxing gym. Check out the instructor, what they teach, how they teach, and what you want to learn. If I thought the ATA was complete and utter BS, I wouldn't be there any more.

JKing
2/13/2006 2:20am,
So your teacher has no qualifications? I mean other than that he's done it for xyz amount of time?

JKing
2/13/2006 2:27am,
Double post:

Heres actually a better question - do you feel you are recieving awesome ATA TKD training, or awesome fight training?

now by the word fight that means self defense/ring

lifetime
2/13/2006 2:32am,
I think that this whole full-contact sparring thing needs a little clarification, because it seems that every TKDer that comes on here is doing "full-contact sparring" to some degree.

-Just because you're allowed to hit as hard as you want, don't make it full-contact sparring. Full-contact thumb-wars isn't on the same level as full-contact TKD isn't on the same level as full-contact boxing isn't on the same level as full-contact MT.

-Getting hit by someone in TKD is very different from getting hit by someone in MT. I'm finding this out the hard way. By the way that "full-contact sparring" is getting thrown around by TKDers on Bullshido you'd think they're almost the same thing.

Big news: it's not even in the same league. You can use a few TKD kicks and give each other a few bruises, and call that full-contact, but it's not even in the same ballpark as getting punched in the face and kneed in the ribs repeatedly. The level of training and the weapons available to you DRASTICALLY affect your experience of "full-contact".

In an extreme example, if an art was ever invented where the only legal weapon to use in sparring was a punch to the arm, and you could punch as hard as you possibly wanted, you could still say you trained full-contact, continuously. But it doesn't mean ****, because the tools you're using wouldn't cut warm butter.

Shu2jack
2/13/2006 2:35am,
So your teacher has no qualifications? I mean other than that he's done it for xyz amount of time?

Again, what are you looking for/at?

He has trained in, and completed, ATA instructor training, attended camps/certifications on our material and any new material introduced into the ATA, CPR/First aid certified, etc. Many programs the ATA runs to train their instructors/school owners my instructor has been through.

Has he trained in another style? Not to my knowlegde, no. Is he a certified physical trainer? No.

lifetime
2/13/2006 2:42am,
Qualifications usually mean a competition/fight record, lineage, or a general record of bad-ass-ness that accompanies a good teacher. Paying $400 for a certification course in Elementary school Taekwondo Instruction doesn't usually qualify.

And I'm still waiting for a response on the full-contact issue.

MEGALEF
2/13/2006 2:46am,
The biggest source of BS in ATA are the ways that instructors are given certificates to teach groundfighting (ATA BJJ), krav maga, knife defense and other stuff after attending a two-day weekend course. Because of this your certificates don't mean much do me. Has any ATA instructor you know of tested himself in competition outside ATA?

King Sleepless
2/13/2006 2:50am,
There's only one thing worst than WTF TKD and that is ATA TKD. You guys give out belts like cupcakes at a birthday party.

I have never EVER seen an ATA person worth their weight. I mean I know of a few VERY good WTF TKD fighters and a few good chunners and ****, even a good Aikidoka. But absolutely ZERO ATA fags can cut it. End of story. Time to make a sandwich.

Shu2jack
2/13/2006 3:01am,
Double post:

Heres actually a better question - do you feel you are recieving awesome ATA TKD training, or awesome fight training?

now by the word fight that means self defense/ring

I definately feel I am receiving awesome TKD training, period. I have went to different TKD schools that are not ATA and have a couple people who train under me who were not originally ATA TKD.

In terms of the ring- no. I work two jobs and go to school full time. I don't put in the effort required into my training right now to be "ring worthy". If I want to do "ring" stuff, and I have played around with it, I would go to a gym that specializes in that type of training. The ATA school simply doesn't train the way nesscary for the ring.

I have very briefly trained at a Judo and Boxing gym and I feel that the skills I have learned would benifit me in training either sport though. Judo is pretty different that TKD, but I had no problem being thrown/falling and with the boxing they really just wanted me to go into a boxers stance (I don't use the "side" TKD stance btw) and hold my hands slightly different. (Not higher, just not as far out from my face...my lead hand tends to sneak out)

In terms of self-defense, I find the training to be good and have used it in personal experance, as have others in my area.



I think that this whole full-contact sparring thing needs a little clarification, because it seems that every TKDer that comes on here is doing "full-contact sparring" to some degree.

-Just because you're allowed to hit as hard as you want, don't make it full-contact sparring. Full-contact thumb-wars isn't on the same level as full-contact TKD isn't on the same level as full-contact boxing isn't on the same level as full-contact MT.

-Getting hit by someone in TKD is very different from getting hit by someone in MT. I'm finding this out the hard way. By the way that "full-contact sparring" is getting thrown around by TKDers on Bullshido you'd think they're almost the same thing.

Big news: it's not even in the same league. You can use a few TKD kicks and give each other a few bruises, and call that full-contact, but it's not even in the same ballpark as getting punched in the face and kneed in the ribs repeatedly. The level of training and the weapons available to you DRASTICALLY affect your experience of "full-contact".

In an extreme example, if an art was ever invented where the only legal weapon to use in sparring was a punch to the arm, and you could punch as hard as you possibly wanted, you could still say you trained full-contact, continuously. But it doesn't mean ****, because the tools you're using wouldn't cut warm butter.

I don't recall saying I sparred full contact or JKing asking how often I spar full contact.