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Tom Kagan
2/09/2006 4:43pm,
Does a poster having a vendetta change the validity of subject matter presented?

In some of the threads here in which GhostDog68 posts a case against Hung Fai Yi Wing Chun and Anthony posts a case against JFS USA, one of the items repeatedly brought up in rebuttal is that there is a vendetta being expressed in the post, and therefore, the information contained within the post is somehow not valid.

I personally think that if the information being presented is valid, it really doesn't matter what the ulterior motive of the person making the posts may be.

For the purposes of determining the validity of bullshido claims, what might other people's thoughts on the subject be?

dramaboy
2/09/2006 5:02pm,
If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

Tomas



Does a poster having a vendetta change the validity of subject matter presented?

In some of the threads here in which GhostDog68 posts a case against Hung Fai Yi Wing Chun and Anthony posts a case against JFS USA, one of the items repeatedly brought up in rebuttal is that there is a vendetta being expressed in the post, and therefore, the information contained within the post is somehow not valid.

I personally think that if the information being presented is valid, it really doesn't matter what the ulterior motive of the person making the posts may be.

For the purposes of determining the validity of bullshido claims, what might other people's thoughts on the subject be?

PirateJon
2/09/2006 5:03pm,
If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

Tomas

I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Pandinha
2/09/2006 5:04pm,
If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

Tomas

I can see where it undermines the concrete points to those who look at it emotionally, instead of logically.

A picture says a thousand words. I gave you two galleries, that's like what? 100 to 150,000 words?!

Greese
2/09/2006 5:18pm,
Yeah, we form vendettas against people on this site if that is the word we are going to use, for being bullshido.

There is and should be a bias against being bullshido. If you don't like that please leave.

Tom Kagan
2/09/2006 5:19pm,
If you have no way of knowing, yet you claim you know, you are effectively lying.

And yes, if you post a halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar wwith the subject of the investigation, it is suspicious. Doesn't invalidate the issue, but it undermines the impact of the good points if there are any.

Tomas


Yes, but the same "halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar" by a person without the vendetta would be subject to the same validity test. So, you are really arguing for answer ... #2, perhaps?

Tom Kagan
2/09/2006 5:21pm,
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


Go here and click the "mailing list" link: http://www.themartialist.com/

:smile:

dramaboy
2/09/2006 5:22pm,
Yes, but the same "halfassed investigation tail to tail with a flamewar" by a person without the vendetta would be subject to the same validity test. So, you are really arguing for answer ... #2, perhaps?

Yes. I misread the option.
#4

Tomas

xingyifa
2/09/2006 6:29pm,
I too say #4. It is the responsibility of the party making the claim to provide solid evidence. Once done, the argument should stand for itself. At this point, nothing invalidates an argument other than countering evidence. A good argument can be made for all the wrong reasons. The "wrong reasons" just make the argument easier to justify ignoring for people who for whatever reason, don't HAVE to know the truth of the matter.

EDIT: I LOVE the steelers, but the seahawks were robbed...

Kobayashi
2/09/2006 6:50pm,
Speaking of JFS, what happened? The last I saw someone was going to open a thread and JFS was going to expain the pictures from the seminar but I never saw it. Keep in mind that I don't have access to the BBC.

CanucKyokushin
2/09/2006 6:51pm,
Yeah, we form vendettas against people on this site if that is the word we are going to use, for being bullshido.

There is and should be a bias against being bullshido. If you don't like that please leave.Anthony's case could have gotten off to a better start if he had all the evidence before starting the flamewar of 2006.But the only thing Anthony can be blamed for NOW is that he should try ,in the future,to think things through before teasing everyone with information that as far as I know that he was the only that new.

eyebeams
2/09/2006 7:05pm,
Photo evidence > Any vendetta on the part of the presenter

Time and time again, threads have proven that stills are the worst way to assess what's going on. Do a search for pics associated with the phrase "keep your hands up."

This is pretty fucking stupid. It took all this idiocy to just come out with:

1) JFS threatened some people.
2) JFS falsely claimed to know BJJ.

Instead of settling this with one locked post and banning JFS for the threats, we have this lame noise.

Everything else about this clusterfuck is inconclusive or irrelevant. Claiming to be a pankraton instructor is irrelevant, because there's no such thing as "real" pankraton anyway. Photo by photo analysis is stupid, because there is no context to be had from any unbiased source.

The sad thing is that while I think that admins were within their rights to deal with this business, they handled it in the worst way possible. Instead of presenting the best evidence (claims out of JFS' mouth that don't jibe), you presented pictures in an extremely stupid way. You claimed that publically available web content was "confidential information."

Just give this **** to Sam Browning next time.

TehDeadlyDimMak
2/09/2006 7:30pm,
I have a question.

What happens to JFS USA now? It seems that nothing will happen to him in terms of backlash. If Phil Elmore posted here again he'd be ridiculed by everyone obviously, but it seems that wouldn't quite be the case with JFS.

eyebeams
2/09/2006 7:56pm,
Incorrect. Look at the photos objectively and not with JFS' cock in your mouth. Is that not grappling? Not only is it grappling, but it contains THE classic grappling defenses.


I hear Royce advocates giving your back to larger, stronger guys. Here's T3h Ph0to 3vid3nce:

http://bjj.org/susumu/ufc-book/royce-vs-kimo.jpg

There are some pictures of some guys either in, partway in or partway out of grappling positions. There's a picture of JFS with his elbow on a guy's back that is either an elbow strike, an elbow to overhook, or something else which, at some point, involved JFS being in that position.


And catch wrestling and pankration, all the while disavowing all grappling knowledge on here to wiggle out of his obvious bullshido teachings.

No, he said he knew catch wrestling here. Pankraton is a meaningless term when applied to anything outside of Ancient Greek history. It's a brand name.

Bullshido *never* did a background check on JFS' exposure to wrestling, despite the fact that he named where and when on a couple of different threads. You were too lazy to get the job done properly, and you reaped the ass-harvest that you sowed.

I don't have any interest in defending JFS. I don't even *like* JFS. I appreciated some of his kung fu-related posts, but I don't care for THE BEAST and all the asociated folktale bullshit. I have an interest in useful discussion -- and better yet, smething positive actually coming out of this clusterfuck.

Doctor Shaft
2/09/2006 7:59pm,
Eh, I forsee nothing happening to anyone from all of this mudslinging. Hell, I couldn't even figure out why there was suddenly an investigation done in the first place. JFS was known for having a "bad boy" internet persona. Sometimes he would inflate things or say things to stir the pot. I suppose, somewhere in there, that threats were made as well.

But at this point, everything has just spiraled into a big muck war. We hear that he threatened some people. Okay... all I see are still shot pictures that aren't supposed to be grappling, but are grappling, but aren't grappling. But again, still shots are hardly useful, especially when they are just amateur photos of a session taking place.

If someone claims that JFS was teaching something "wrong," I'm merely shrugging my shoulders at this point. JFS didn't run away from such claims, and in the process made no attempt to tell people that he was t3h r34l grapple. If you caught him teaching faulty or useless stuff... okay, we all know about it now. But the way it was presented to all of bullshido.com was both sudden and... well all I could think of was FEUD throughout the whole thing. So, as a reader, I didn't put too much stock in this event. I only wondered why we were so completely focused on it, to the point of creating a 50+ page thread.

I don't care about JFS on this matter. I have no desire to go seek him out and meet him in person. I don't talk to him. I wouldn't put it past ANYONE on Bullshido to have taught or espoused "bullshido" at one time or another, even in 2006. If someone one day says, "OMG, Asia taught bullshido!" I wouldn't flip out and lose all faith in this website. We make our arguments, people argue about it for a bit, and so long as each side stays reasonable, we move on.

That being said, I don't mind that someone decides to say that JFS is pulling bullshido. But this investigation just wreaked of "I don't like you anymore!" That's fine for you, personally, but it's not good for the rest of us who have NO CLUE what's really going on.

GreenHornet
2/09/2006 8:02pm,
when JFS USA started to post here I thought he was quite annoying and he is using vulgarity to a high that the profanity he used became meaningless after a while.
but now I think its all right
plus if he is really as a good CMAist as he is a trash talker then I think his presence here is acceptable.