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Tommy
1/30/2006 11:40am,
Mornin' everyone. The following post talks a bit about my experience with martial arts and the questions I've been thinking about. I'm thinking out loud and looking for some no-nonsense input.

I'm currently practicing sanshou kickboxing, but my first martial art experience was with kung fu back in early 2000. The teacher was reputable, but there was one major problem... no sparring. The school used to have a (full-contact) sparring program, led by the teacher, but reportedly interest dropped and the sparring class was too poorly attended to merit continuation. The issue was that people would try it out, feel some pain, and decide that they didn't want to fight. The forms sure are pretty, though...

So during my time there, if we wanted to spar we did it on our own. Since the teacher wasn't giving us guidance for fighting with the style, we either tried to figure it out as best we could or we kickboxed (some of us were trained in kickboxing, muay thai, sanshou, etc.) with a few kung fu moves thrown in. Needless to say, very few kung fu-specific techniques made it into our sparring practice, and what we learned at the kwoon was entirely separate from our sparring, which never seemed right to me.

After a few years, I started taking sanshou for the sparring aspect, since I couldn't get that from the kung fu school. As I learned it I found that the principles of the boxing, kicking, and takedown techniques were actually very much in line with the principles I learned for kung fu; they just looked different on the outside. I tried to reconcile these things, and I consulted a lot of other kung fu students and my teacher trying to figure out how I could make my kung fu work the way that sanshou works.

The most useful thing I heard was: the techniques in the forms are exaggerated to show the principles/energy more clearly. In actual application, the movements are smaller and simpler. This, of course, brings up the question, "why do we practice it this way if we use it that way?" The only real explanation I can think of is that forms aren't meant to be the primary training method, and more time should be spent with the simplified fighting moves than the exaggerated ones in the routines. I have yet to see a kung fu school that practices accordingly.

Could kung fu be effective if practiced this way, with its emphasis on using a few simple moves to spar? That would certainly bring it more in line with the successful combat sports.

There are some kung fu schools that have sparring programs, but most of them seem to be the same sort of modern sanshou you'd see Cung Le doing; that is, it's disconnected from their forms. This is evident even with the teachers who learned in China and then immigrated here to the United States. That makes me wonder.

One thing that confuses me in particular is that kungfu was clearly used for fighting at some point; that's how schools built reputation back in the day and, in fact, was the entire reason for their existence. Did we lose the application somewhere along the way? Has kung fu become crap, or is it just that people are so interested in the movies and culture that they don't train the way they need to in order to fight? It's certainly true that most kung fu students I've met are primarily interested in things other than fighting.

We know that kung fu isn't respected on these boards. Does anyone here believe that it could be a useful fighting system if trained correctly? Or have you written it off as a load of crap that isn't even worth the consideration?

wagamichi
1/30/2006 11:46am,
We know that kung fu isn't respected on these boards. Does anyone here believe that it could be a useful fighting system if trained correctly? Or have you written it off as a load of crap that isn't even worth the consideration?


Well I train in the tsai's family art of shaolin chuan fa. It is all about fighting. There are so many kung-fu systems that you can't really make a blanket statment that kung fu sucks. Mant of the kung fu teachers today seem to have been the geeks enthraled by grasshoper on the tv show. A lot of kung fu is more like little mini-cults created to kiss the sifus ass. some are still about fighting though, and many are really good at it.

TehDeadlyDimMak
1/30/2006 11:47am,
This has been addressed 10 billion times before. The answer to your question is "Yes Kung Fu is effective when trained properly." MOST Kung Fu isn't respected on this board because it sucks. However, our Moderators and role models Omega and Asia both use Kung Fu to good extent. JFS USA and Dale Dugas also use Kung Fu effectively.

Use the search function in the future. Welcome to Bullshido.

Omega Supreme
1/30/2006 12:48pm,
Mornin' everyone. The following post talks a bit about my experience with martial arts and the questions I've been thinking about. I'm thinking out loud and looking for some no-nonsense input.

I'm currently practicing sanshou kickboxing, but my first martial art experience was with kung fu back in early 2000. The teacher was reputable, but there was one major problem... no sparring. The school used to have a (full-contact) sparring program, led by the teacher, but reportedly interest dropped and the sparring class was too poorly attended to merit continuation. The issue was that people would try it out, feel some pain, and decide that they didn't want to fight. The forms sure are pretty, though...

So during my time there, if we wanted to spar we did it on our own. Since the teacher wasn't giving us guidance for fighting with the style, we either tried to figure it out as best we could or we kickboxed (some of us were trained in kickboxing, muay thai, sanshou, etc.) with a few kung fu moves thrown in. Needless to say, very few kung fu-specific techniques made it into our sparring practice, and what we learned at the kwoon was entirely separate from our sparring, which never seemed right to me.

After a few years, I started taking sanshou for the sparring aspect, since I couldn't get that from the kung fu school. As I learned it I found that the principles of the boxing, kicking, and takedown techniques were actually very much in line with the principles I learned for kung fu; they just looked different on the outside. I tried to reconcile these things, and I consulted a lot of other kung fu students and my teacher trying to figure out how I could make my kung fu work the way that sanshou works.

The most useful thing I heard was: the techniques in the forms are exaggerated to show the principles/energy more clearly. In actual application, the movements are smaller and simpler. This, of course, brings up the question, "why do we practice it this way if we use it that way?" The only real explanation I can think of is that forms aren't meant to be the primary training method, and more time should be spent with the simplified fighting moves than the exaggerated ones in the routines. I have yet to see a kung fu school that practices accordingly.

Could kung fu be effective if practiced this way, with its emphasis on using a few simple moves to spar? That would certainly bring it more in line with the successful combat sports.

There are some kung fu schools that have sparring programs, but most of them seem to be the same sort of modern sanshou you'd see Cung Le doing; that is, it's disconnected from their forms. This is evident even with the teachers who learned in China and then immigrated here to the United States. That makes me wonder.

One thing that confuses me in particular is that kungfu was clearly used for fighting at some point; that's how schools built reputation back in the day and, in fact, was the entire reason for their existence. Did we lose the application somewhere along the way? Has kung fu become crap, or is it just that people are so interested in the movies and culture that they don't train the way they need to in order to fight? It's certainly true that most kung fu students I've met are primarily interested in things other than fighting.

We know that kung fu isn't respected on these boards. Does anyone here believe that it could be a useful fighting system if trained correctly? Or have you written it off as a load of crap that isn't even worth the consideration?


Simple answer dude, in shadow boxing you use loose hands, you wouldn't do that upon impact in an actual sparring match or hitting a bag. When you practice your shoots in wrestling there's normally weight behind it but when you practic in the air your body placement is a bit different.

Just the way of no partner training.

losttrak
1/30/2006 1:13pm,
Tommy, where do you train? Are you in Dallas by chance? =D

Slydermv
1/30/2006 1:20pm,
One thing that confuses me in particular is that kungfu was clearly used for fighting at some point; that's how schools built reputation back in the day and, in fact, was the entire reason for their existence. Did we lose the application somewhere along the way?



I find this point particularily intresting. Anyone with knowledge have some comments?

TehDeadlyDimMak
1/30/2006 2:43pm,
i heard that way back in the day it was legal in China for stronger schools to beat up weaker schools.

So it might've just basically been the "schoolyard" quality control. Where the local bully beats everyone up until someone bigger comes into the picture. Once the teachers stop the bullying everyone turns into a wimp.

Moral of the story is that bullying is just super.

OZZ
1/30/2006 5:55pm,
Blanket statements about kung fu are all too common.
Not every style is the same, and the form faeries and pretenders do not represent the essence of kung fu.
We in the CMA community know who among us is real. That is enough.

TehDeadlyDimMak
1/30/2006 6:35pm,
Actually I'd say it's difficult to tell these days... simply because there are so @#%@#%ing many of us these days and nothing's regulated...

we need a CMA version of Sherdog.

shuaichiaorules
1/31/2006 12:44pm,
what do you guys consider kung fu? Are you talking internal martial arts. Kung fu just means practice and time, which can be considered for all forms of MA.

shuaichiaorules
1/31/2006 12:46pm,
I am also involved in a school where we are not allowed to spar together. During our shuai chiao classs we can spar because it is just throwing, but during the hard style classes it would never work with the things we learn the fights would last 30 seconds max and someone would be in the hospital

FictionPimp
1/31/2006 12:59pm,
I am also involved in a school where we are not allowed to spar together. During our shuai chiao classs we can spar because it is just throwing, but during the hard style classes it would never work with the things we learn the fights would last 30 seconds max and someone would be in the hospital


And these things would be? Are you refering to the deadly neck punch, eye poke, or nose into the brain?

losttrak
1/31/2006 2:49pm,
Tommy? You still there? HellOooOoo?

amichaell
1/31/2006 3:41pm,
I am also involved in a school where we are not allowed to spar together. During our shuai chiao classs we can spar because it is just throwing, but during the hard style classes it would never work with the things we learn the fights would last 30 seconds max and someone would be in the hospital

So how do you know anything you are taught will work outside of class?

isol8d
1/31/2006 4:14pm,
Mornin' everyone. The following post talks a bit about my experience with martial arts and the questions I've been thinking about. I'm thinking out loud and looking for some no-nonsense input.

I'm currently practicing sanshou kickboxing, but my first martial art experience was with kung fu back in early 2000. The teacher was reputable, but there was one major problem... no sparring. The school used to have a (full-contact) sparring program, led by the teacher, but reportedly interest dropped and the sparring class was too poorly attended to merit continuation. The issue was that people would try it out, feel some pain, and decide that they didn't want to fight. The forms sure are pretty, though...



Unfortunately, this is an all too common scenario with kung fu. Happened at my school. 25 people start, as soon as we start contact, we're down to 5-8, as soon as we start hard contact, I'm the last one standing.

I persevered, fought in a tournament, and got our sparring class restarted.

Next goal is to fight full contact rules.

isol8d
1/31/2006 4:15pm,
Tommy? You still there? HellOooOoo?

He's busy playing a mean pinball.