View Full Version : Made-up Kata & Long Dead Master's!

4/24/2003 8:18pm,
How many of you have heard of people making up their own Kata (Forms) and then for commercial reason's attaching the name of some long dead master to the form in the hope of gaining credibility for the kata and the person who made it up?

What if that person then commenced to sell this so-called Kata on a video to anyone who would part with their hard earned money in the belief they were actually getting footage of a form with genuine lineage to the long dead master?

Is this not disrespectful to the memory of the long dead master whose name was tagged on to the kata?

Is this not lying to the students and other well-paying punters who line up at seminars to learn what they incorrectly believe is a true historically correct form?

Is this type of practice not genuine martial arts fraud?

Sam Browning
4/24/2003 9:29pm,
Hi Tsuruken:

I haven't heard of some 'master' doing this, but if they did it would be deception and fraud. Do you you know of someone doing this?

4/24/2003 9:34pm,
This was done in the old days in China; Marshal Yueh Fei has a number of arts spuriously attributed to him, Xingyi most famously. Chinese culture, then and now, showed reverence for the old over the new, a driving motive behind this sort of practice.

Today, however, things are different. I want to say that fraud is fraud, but looking at the "fraud" of Xingyi being attributed to Yueh Fei and the "fraud" of CDT coming from some Philippine art called Hom-Do (?), I have to say that the merit of the form comes into the equation.

If it's a good form (in the broad sense), like Xingyi, it may be a permissible fraud to attribute it to a long-dead master. Without that name attached, a good form could go unnoticed like a diamond in the rough.

If it's a bad form, and the instructor is using the master's name only as a tool for making money, then of course it is an impermissible fraud. Ideally, forms should be able to stand on their own merit, and today we have alternate ways of establishing that merit and credibility than simply using the name of a long-dead master.

4/24/2003 10:34pm,
Honesty matters.

By the way, with very little difference, I've done the same kata in Kajukenbo, Chung Do Kwan TDK, and Kyokushinkai. And I beleive it's in Shotokan, also. There's only so many cool kata out there. And there is an immense amount of information on the history of kata on the web. It's funny to read, one school sez that this kata's source is lost to the ages and then the next school traces it through a half dozen Okinawan's and what schools have done with it for a hundred years. And I learned a wrist pin from the web, from a kata I'd done for years, just no one knew the movement's real application.

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

4/25/2003 7:01am,
Using someone else's name is stupid.

Why give credit for a decent kata to some dead guy? You are robbing yourself. Sure, you may get some recognition amongst less educated people. But in the long run you are robbing yourself of being listed as the creator of the kata.

4/25/2003 7:30am,
General Choi Hong Hi did that in Korea when he made up the "Blue Cottage" forms in 1950. These are the forms used by the ITF Taekwondo organizations.

R. McLain

4/25/2003 9:43am,
Samuel Browning:

To answer, lets just say that a very high profile Western "Historian" of the martial arts of Okinawa has done exactly this and I feel duped quite a few hard working students and other martial artists of their money and time for what is essentially something he put together and then tagged the name of a long dead master on to same.

The person in question has done this on several occasions and markets video tapes and seminars of these so-called secret forms for more than a few dollars ......... of course!

4/25/2003 2:31pm,
who's are you talking about,tsuruken?

4/25/2003 7:00pm,
Name names or else!

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

4/25/2003 9:38pm,
Pat-Would that be feasible? People can get sued and stuff.

"Chinese culture, then and now, showed reverence for the old over the new, a driving motive behind this sort of practice."

Blame Buddhism and ancestor worship....

rmclain-mmmmm blue cottage cheese....

Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.

4/25/2003 9:39pm,
No names .... yet. But he is a high profile Western martiaql arts "historain" who has wrote several books and "interpretations".

4/25/2003 9:52pm,
oh, playing hard to get. well we will just have to start with guesses and rampant speculation.

george dillman?

patrick mccarthy?

gichin funakoshi?

choki motobu?

i know the last two are dead, but i do kuntao, so that is the extent of my guesses.


4/26/2003 2:29am,
One of the top three listed but not George Dillman!

Royal Dragon
4/26/2003 7:43pm,
gichin funakoshi?

4/26/2003 9:02pm,
Nope! In total honesty it's none of those mentioned. Its more based on a composite of things I see happening within the martial arts and thought would make for interesting discussion.

The fact is that many have done this same thing in the course of martial arts history

Edited by - tsuruken on April 27 2003 19:39:23

2/06/2004 8:05pm,
Yeah I heard about the famous Aragaki Seisan kata......Enough fools bought the videotapes and stuff... First he claimed it was an original kata passed down to him. When a bunch of folks started questioning him on it he started claiming he never said it was! Problem was when he first sold the video's they say it on them! So people got Noooooo shame, anything for a buck!

There's a sucker born every minute....Pt Barnum