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9chambers
4/24/2003 6:56am,
If you want to know some history of Ninjutsu (pre-Hayes and pre-Hatsumi) reading these texts is a good start:

Bansenshukai (1676)
http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/bansenshukai.html

Ninpiden
http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/ninpidenindex.htm

Shoninki (1682)
http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/shnnkmkrk.htm

Go here for more texts:
http://www.ninpo.org/historicalrecords/historicalrecords.html

* A decent page about the overall history of Ninjutsu on into modern times is:
http://www.sspain.com/BujinkanCollado/historia/N.T.E%20ingl.html

"However it helped towards creating an interest for something which was apparently extinct. Some NINJUTSU schools, are still represented by certain masters who would rather keep them in the dark, masters such as: HEISHICHIRO OKUSE, NORIHIRO KAKUYUSAI, FUMIO NAWA and the most popular one in terms of his international projection : MASAAKI HATSUMI, who is keeping a several century long tradition alive."

Interesting.

>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

9chambers
4/24/2003 7:14am,
You can find volume 10 of the Bansenshukai here:
http://www.robertk.com/Bansenshukai/

Also, these books are considered important. You can buy them here:

http://www.buyubooks.com/feature.cfm?f=8

Edited by - 9chambers on April 24 2003 07:18:43

Mr. Donkeypenis
4/24/2003 7:39am,
It's all a fat load of bullshit. Ninjitsu was never a fighting style. I don't care about supposed "ancient" scrolls and texts, it's all a bunch of crap that is feeding off the over-active imagination of American pre-teen boys.

Ninja were peasants in ancient Japan that were used as politically motivated thugs and spies. Rarely did they kill anyone and they were far from being considered "warriors". The Japanese themselves don't understand this foriegn infatuation with ninjas. It would be like saying 500 years from now you knew the "political activist style" that was perfected in combat with riot-geared police.

It's bullshit, bottom line.



Edited by - Mr. Donkeypenis on April 24 2003 07:42:33

Gezere
4/24/2003 7:53am,
DP,

Before speaking know what you are talking about.

>It's all a fat load of bullshit. Ninjitsu was never a fighting style.

I think I made it clear SEVERAL times that it wasn't. H2H was very low on the list of priorities, just like it is for modern guerrilla fighters now. Plus if you take the time to READ (or in your case get a translation of the Bashenshukai, Shoninki, Ninpen, etc.) you will find the H2H is very rarely mentioned if at all. Most H2H was mainly a taijutsu method of a from a different ryuha.

>Ninja were peasants in ancient Japan that were used as politically motivated thugs and spies.

WRONG most ninjas were actually SAMURAI (more apt RONIN) that either lost their lord or movtivated to get perform deeds that were either against BUSHIDO or would give them more of a tatctical advantage.

>Rarely did they kill anyone and they were far from being considered "warriors".

Half wrong half right. They certianly DID kill pple, quite often if need be. But they were considered less than dogs because of their tactics.

>The Japanese themselves don't understand this foriegn infatuation with ninjas.

Uhm you don't know much about the Japanese. THEY are just as infatuated. Several blockbuster movies for them were NINJA movies. There are TONS of manga featuring ninjas, there are two ninja theme parks that I know of (may be more) as well as a Ninja muesum. Children play NINJA GAMES all the time (they mostly run around yelling DORON DORON which is the the sound when a ninja disapears)

>It would be like saying 500 years from now you knew the "political activist style" that was perfected in combat with riot-geared police.

The Japanese are very big on keeping records centuries year old texts are around and have been milled over quite well.


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SLJ
4/24/2003 8:31am,
That does sound correct, especially the part about them being Ronin, and considered less than dogs for their tactics. They were assasins.

Which is why modern "Ninjitsu" people are such a joke, jumping around a sports hall shouting at the top of their lungs.



----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

N8y5000
4/24/2003 8:42am,
Thank god asia exists. The place and the forum member.

N8y5000
4/24/2003 8:45am,
"Which is why modern "Ninjitsu" people are such a joke, jumping around a sports hall shouting at the top of their lungs."

Funny...I haven't seen these Ninjitsu practitioners. Save Ashida kim(not really ninjitsu).

SLJ
4/24/2003 8:45am,
Don't let him see that, his heads big enough ;-)

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

SLJ
4/24/2003 8:47am,
N8y, they're about.

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

N8y5000
4/24/2003 9:04am,
I take Ninjitsu....or did a month ago. I have never seen anything of the like. But I know those bastards exist.

Mr. Donkeypenis
4/24/2003 9:50am,
Quote "WRONG most ninjas were actually SAMURAI (more apt RONIN) that either lost their lord or movtivated to get perform deeds that were either against BUSHIDO or would give them more of a tatctical advantage."

Sorry, but I think you are wrong. I disagree with the above statement.

Quote: "Uhm you don't know much about the Japanese."

I used to live there for 2 years. I know enough. I also know that the only "ninja" stuff that I saw or heard about there was by Americans. I also know that when the topic of ninjas came up aroung Japanese, they really didn't have much to say. They were more referred to like spies than anything like assasins or warriors.

Quote: "THEY are just as infatuated. Several blockbuster movies for them were NINJA movies."

The only blockbusters I saw advertised there were foriegn movies. Never once did I see anything about ninjas.

Quote: "There are TONS of manga featuring ninjas.."

Like what? Ninja scroll? A movie that a lot of american teens think is awesome but most Japanese have never even heard of?

Quote: "there are two ninja theme parks that I know of (may be more) as well as a Ninja muesum."

I know of the ninja museum. As far as ninja theme parks I'd have to look that up.

Quote: "Children play NINJA GAMES all the time (they mostly run around yelling DORON DORON which is the the sound when a ninja disapears)"

I don't know if DORON DORON (or GARON GARON depending on how you are pronouncing it) is the sound ninjas make, I thought that was the sound that children say when they roll over on the floor.

blueskycomplex
4/24/2003 10:50am,
I am going to Japan before not too long, and my Japanese friends want to take me to a ninja village. It's some sort of amusment park. Everytime we see something about ninjas we laugh, because they are flat out stupid. The average Japanese doesn't care about ninjas, and they think the idea of anyone studying ninjitusu today is just plain insane.

Blad3
4/24/2003 10:57am,
well thanks for these, they sound ibteresting, but READING? aaaaah, couldn't you have given at least least a few video clips? :\

=====

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shinbushi
4/24/2003 11:27am,
Actually Asia is correct and many Samurai Schools like Katori Shinto Ryu and Kuki Shin Den Ryu have ninjutsu in their upper scrolls. Kind of like the lower scrolls are you basic training and the upper scrolls are you comando training. Remember many regular Army (Navy etc) leader looked down (Some still do) on comando types until Viet Nam.
Mr. Donkeypenis learn some history.
I have a BA in Japanese Studies, and lived in Japan for 7 years.

kusa
4/24/2003 12:53pm,
thanx for the links, already nu most of them but the modern history one is very interesting... thanx,
as an aside how do you 'shinbushi' bring progressive sparring in safely and stil retain the techniques of taijutsu? ive been trying various sparring formats over the last few months with some other students outside of class and they mostly degenerate into mauling far to quickly, whilst im pickin up some good body cond i find it hard to aply waza some of the time?

TMMA specilist, marital arts 10th dan soke!

PizDoff
4/24/2003 12:59pm,
upper scrolls? lower scrolls? what's the dif?

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Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.