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N8y5000
4/23/2003 10:20pm,
OK....On this forum I have been a strong proponent for TKD quite often in the threads. I will now clarify that I do fight MMA, and that I agree, that a TKD guy alone, will ultimately lose to any respectable MMA guy. TKD has GREAT kicks. I learned to kick from TKD and how to take a hit, I got lots of power, some experience, giant legs, and lot of fun and medals. That's pretty much the sum of what I got from TKD. It would be shameful of anyone who intends to be good, to limit themselves to one art.

Simply put. My 2nd degree black belt and 10 years experience in TKD WOULD NOT WORK BY ITSELF against a resisting, knowlegable MA opponent. I do, and would have to, have some grappling experience also. My striking ability is now priceless to me and my experience in TKD is not over. I am, however, taking Judo twice a week, two hour sessions each, and still actively practicing with my Ninjitsu friends. We have a Kali teacher that comes into our TKD school to teach that as well. I need all of them, and most anyone will. Unless you are simply better than anyone I've ever seen with your proficiency in a striking art, you will need a more than just TKD or Karate.(speaking vs. other MAists....street opponents are no problem for TKD or Karate)

Grapplers have an inherent advantage. Here is why: If a striker hits you, you are still free to move, disengage, run, strike back, or clinch and grapple him. If a grappler grabs you, you ARE NOT free to disengage, run, or have complete striking power. This means the grappler only has to accomplish one thing at first, grab you. The striker has to worry about you striking them, you grabbing them, you running away, etc... You are then on forced to play a grapplers game until you can strike/struggle out of it. I've never heard of "struggle" as a martial arts technique, but if you don't know how to grapple that's what you'll have to do to get out of the hold. This is largely why Judo, BJJ, and other grappling arts work so well. Reasons why:

#1- Clear objectives.
#2- Clear game plan.
#3- Above mentioned inherent advantage.
#4- Works well when you go to the ground.

I'm not being a grappling elitist. I'm being a MMA elitist. It's just common sense to me.

Your thoughts?(most specifically directed toward the inherent advatage paragraph)

blueskycomplex
4/23/2003 10:35pm,
I totally agree on the inherent advantage. At my school we are taught that striking is the gateway to takedowns, throws, and other close range techniques. Strike while you are at that range and utilize it to move in.

The Wastrel
4/23/2003 10:51pm,
Complete agreement, but I couldn't say it first.

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

Courtesy of flubtitles.com

9chambers
4/24/2003 3:17am,
I agree too. Training for all ranges is the way to go. I also agree that a TKD or Karate stylist can do very well against a punk.

I just had an interesting conversation with some TKD people tonight. My point was that any sport that takes part of something and isolates it (wether it be boxing, wrestling or point sparring) is going to cause it's participants to develop specific new techniques which work well under the boundaries of their sport but make no sense when you add the rest of the picture back into the formula.

Some examples:

* Boxing - Some guys hold a jab out there to block your vision and push you back. In full combat the guy could grab that arm and pull you right into a headlock and take you down. That isn't allowed in boxing so they can get away with it all day.

* Point Sparring - The back isn't a legal target so a lot of guys come in turned away from you slightly, leaving their kidneys and spine open for attack.

* Wrestling - Wrestlers don't have a lot of chinks in their armour. However, one technique for closing the distance is to lock up with the enemy in a clinch. If he knows Muay Thai that may get you into trouble. Wrestling and Muay Thai is a decent combonation.

I don't think training seperately in two martial arts is enough. You have to learn how to integrate them. Learning a striking art that neglects the impact of grappling and kicking on MWF and a grappling art that ignores striking and kicking on Tuesday and Thursday isn't the same thing as learning a fully mixed system. It's closer than a lot of people get but not quite the same thing.


>> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643

Edited by - 9chambers on April 24 2003 03:19:19

DRT
4/24/2003 5:19am,
A good wrestler can still end a fight quickly, I know a new guy on my wrestling team who wrestlered when he lived back in the city, he said he got into street fights all the time and all he did was a double leg lift and slam them on the concrete, which will end the fight quick.

Blad3
4/24/2003 5:34am,
Grapplers have an inherent advantage. Here is why: If a striker hits you, you are still free to move, disengage, run, strike back, or clinch and grapple him. If a grappler grabs you, you ARE NOT free to disengage, run, or have complete striking power. This means the grappler only has to accomplish one thing at first, grab you. The striker has to worry about you striking them, you grabbing them, you running away, etc... You are then on forced to play a grapplers game until you can strike/struggle out of it. I've never heard of "struggle" as a martial arts technique, but if you don't know how to grapple that's what you'll have to do to get out of the hold. This is largely why Judo, BJJ, and other grappling arts work so well. Reasons why:

#1- Clear objectives.
#2- Clear game plan.
#3- Above mentioned inherent advantage.
#4- Works well when you go to the ground.

I'm not being a grappling elitist. I'm being a MMA elitist. It's just common sense to me.

Your thoughts?(most specifically directed toward the inherent advatage paragraph)
This is just True, I;ve been thinkign this for ages; wether you want to believe it or not. On this forum you know what the arguments are all really about, i mean at least the ones that go on for a while? They're about not understanding each other's striking systems. We rarely if EVER get into arguments about grappling, because becasically we all think the same thing. It's not fair to compare grappling and striking, you shoudl do it seperately. Good post.

If you can only train in ONE "range" train in Grappling/Wrestling, because it's the LEAST you should know.


I don't think training seperately in two martial arts is enough. You have to learn how to integrate them Exactly. The least you should really do is to train a grappling and a good striking art seperately. BUT you should also intergrate them as well, in say an MMA class or whatever. You'll learn the specialized technqiued very quickly if you;re already good at grappling and striking.


If he doesnt he gets pwned. If he does it might be a small problem. The main problem with wrestling is the lack of chokes. And yes i know that there is also submission wrestling and such, but still. Exactly, we;ve got to compare the grappling arts seperately to see who would "win" or have the advantage overall: the grapplers with the submissions usually.


I know a new guy on my wrestling team who wrestlered when he lived back in the city, he said he got into street fights all the time and all he did was a double leg lift and slam them on the concrete Yes that sounds believeabl; that's actually the type of thing I'd try to do if I had to fight.

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Blad3
4/24/2003 5:43am,
Yeah that's why I said not always - because of the take down advantage - The BJJ guy would probabky pull guard or something, if you hadn.t already taken him down hard. Remember BJJ ppl train wrestling/judo too, and if you do happen to go to the ground with one, it's likely that you'll get yourself hurt. Though yeah, I'd much prefer to have Wrestling takedowns for the streets...but then again I would train them in BJJ...

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

N8y5000
4/24/2003 8:48am,
Thank you guys for your feedback.

MMA_Phil
4/24/2003 9:59am,
Yeah, good post.

MMA_Phil
4/24/2003 9:59am,
Yeah, good post.

Omega Supreme
4/24/2003 1:01pm,
NO! (trolling) this posts sucks!! (didn't have coffee this morning) TKD sucks!!! BJJ sucks!!! Only Omega-fu is all powerful all great!!!

All bow down to Omega....that means you!!!

Go away I'm talking to myself

PizDoff
4/24/2003 1:09pm,
You're a MMA elitist?!?!? WOWOW!!!


Omega, get your fat head out of the way. :)


Uh yeah i pretty much agree, i also think it takes more skill to be a striker....
(me is both)

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.

The Wastrel
4/24/2003 1:20pm,
i also think it takes more skill to be a striker....

I dub thee...troll. ;)


"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

Courtesy of flubtitles.com

Omega Supreme
4/24/2003 1:23pm,
TROLL!!!!!!!!!
<<<<bang>>>>

Did I git him pardner?

Go away I'm talking to myself

Bolverk
4/24/2003 1:31pm,
I liked this post, and I agree with the premise. After reading it, I am very glad that our instructor includes Ground Fighting, Pressure Points, and Advance Sparring in our training.

Sincerely,

Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

The Wastrel
4/24/2003 1:32pm,
You hit him high, and I'll hit him low.

"I'm devastating, looking for some refreshment!"

Courtesy of flubtitles.com