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The Wastrel
4/18/2003 11:04pm,
Partially in response to Rogue's thread on the point of Bullshido, I am writing this. Consider it a combination of advice and my own personal mission statement vis a vis this website.

Part of the reason why definitions of McDojo must remain a function of the forum Rogue, is that much of what qualifies a school as such may be aesthetic and is certainly well within the bounds of legal business practices. Because of this, it's far more fair for Phrost to leave the debate public and open to be settled or not in the forums. This forum is not an arbiter of good or legal business practices, like a legislative body is; consider it an ethical clearing house for the martial arts community. This isn't just where people can rip on an instructor for instituting a black belt club; this is also where that instructor can defend that practice, which has been done several times over. You cannot sue someone for saying that Black Belt Clubs are McDojo, or that they "suck" or are "lame". None of these accusations represent breach of law; nothing in there constitutes fraud. These are ethical and aesthtic issues, and as such are not necessarily touched by the powers of law. One week BJJ may be McDojo and the next week it's TKD...again ;P

Bullshido, however, is far more easy to define, but much more dangerous to pursue. When someone is making fradulent claims about his abilitites or lineage etc. that is Bullshido, and it is illegal. But many of those claims are also nearly unfalsifiable. Some of what may be bullshido can be policed by the relevant communities. Pointing the BJJ community in the direction of Drew Howe is an example of a simple solution to this sort of problem. These are the issue over which someone may be sued. If one makes the claim that they are the only living master of a secret Indonesian fighting art, another may be tempted to simply accuse that person of fraud, but that is exceedingly dangerous. It is not dangerous because the accusations are wrong, but simply because the options open to the accused are infinitely greater. You cannot take someone to court because he claims to be the last living master of Nigerian Toast Boxing. You may try. Good luck. But you CAN sue someone who accuses you of LYING about your mastery of Nigerian Toast Boxing. Right has nothing to do with it. Victory is not vindication.

The only way to pursue bullshidoka safely is to follow roughly what a good reporter does. Ask questions; ask more questions. Save letters and email. Check records. Take up challenges. REPORT THE SIMPLE FACTS. Even then, the law may leave the culprit with far greater resources, whether he is lying or not. But if you have kept your investigation within these modest limits, you may be able to successfully defend yourself, with a moderate amount of counsel. There are other dangers, but I will not post them in order to prevent anyone from getting ideas.

In any case, identifying a bullshidoka may not ultimately be worth it; far more valuable may be the identification of warning signs and the dissemination of information with which people may protect themselves. Save energy for the truly meaningful fights that you CAN win.

More than anything, if you are stupid or ineloquent, do not attempt this. You may find yourself in over your head faster than you can think-WHETHER YOU ARE RIGHT OR NOT.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Shooter
4/19/2003 1:53am,
How arrogant can you get?

As I mentioned once before here, if you're going to name names, come out from behind your monicker. Put your name to your claim and stand in the face of those you single out. They deserve at least that much.



Edited by - Shooter on April 19 2003 01:55:13

Shooter
4/19/2003 2:12am,
Settle. I wasn't talking about anyone in particular.

I was suggesting a basic policy which I'm sure everyone with the overwhelming conviction to defraud, debunk, and expose should have no problem with.

An addition to what is being outlined as proper protocol for such an undertaking. That way, certain members here who have recently attempted to 'do their part' would be otherwise deterred or at least tread a little more carefully as they gathered 'facts'.

don't mind me...

The Wastrel
4/19/2003 2:49am,
Who's arrogant?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

deus ex machina
4/19/2003 2:57am,
j0 m0mma.

~
danny

Shooter
4/19/2003 3:06am,
MA Legitimacy Nazis and self-appointed regulators...

A tempest in a tea-cup most of the time

Also, the focus is twisted and skewed by idiots who have nothing better to do. The whole ideology behind this crap breeds some of the worst zealots I've ever seen.

6 more posts...

Rogue
4/19/2003 10:18am,
I agree with Shooter. Are the people questioning the legigtimacy of any school or art legit themselves. You tag someone a McDojo with the intent of ruining their business then you should be willing to put your verified name and address on the line. After the USSD fiasco I doubt this will happen, therefore "so much for bullshido". If this is a real public service then it should be run a lot more seriously. If not it's just a place to make fun of fakes or those we have prejudges against.
IMO it's not the idea of Bullshido that's bad just the execution. Now what contitutes a McDojo is too vague to really chase. The best thing to do is make sure our own houses are in order.



Edited by - rogue on April 19 2003 10:24:49

The Wastrel
4/19/2003 10:20am,
Shooter,
MA legitimacy Nazis are one of my targets. Isn't that clear? Maybe I should have spent more time on it, but I think it's explicitly clear that I am attempting to establish reasonable limits.

I think you may be confusing Blade's arguments with accusations of Bullshido. Whether he thinks so or not, they're not the same thing. And most people who've thought about this would agree. Part of the debate that goes on in the forum is simply shop-talk about effectivity. Nobody's saying that Taiji is bullshido. In fact, I don't think anyone ever has.

However, if some guy watches a few videos and then sets himself up as a Taiji instructor. That's bullshido. Same goes for anything else. Simple. You must realize that sort of thing is a SERIOUS problem within MAs.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

poet
4/19/2003 10:47am,
W -
"You must realize that sort of thing is a SERIOUS problem within MAs."

I think (Shaddup) we all agree on that pont.
The questions is how do we go about, or do we, exposing these video self appointed masters et al.
As others have mentioned we need to be credible. How?

Instead of identifying just Bullshido shouldn't we also identify more quality schools?

"I do not agree with what you have to say but, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

The Wastrel
4/19/2003 11:22am,
As I said Rogue, it isn't really altogether too important that this site exposes SPECIFICS, but that we discuss the problem at all. If a school owner stumbles across this site, maybe he'll be persuaded to move one way or another.

I have never tried to point out specific instances of fraud.

Rogue,
People criticize films with the specific intent of lowering attendance. I'm just trying to point out what some rough defensible limits are, and by doing so to encourage behaviour to stay within normal bounds. In case you didn't notice, asking questions of specific people would require people to come out of hiding.

There are plenty of websites out there from which you may make very good conclusions about the school's quality, but there are plenty that you merely cannot.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Omega Supreme
4/19/2003 11:25am,
How arrogant can you get?

As I mentioned once before here, if you're going to name names, come out from behind your monicker. Put your name to your claim and stand in the face of those you single out. They deserve at least that much.



You've already mentioned it but please don't be a hypocrite, feel free to let us know who you are, where you live, so if you step out of line in any way shape or form we can come hunting for you. (Sounds like big brother is watching.



I agree with Shooter. Are the people questioning the legigtimacy of any school or art legit themselves. You tag someone a McDojo with the intent of ruining their business then you should be willing to put your verified name and address on the line. After the USSD fiasco I doubt this will happen, therefore "so much for bullshido". If this is a real public service then it should be run a lot more seriously. If not it's just a place to make fun of fakes or those we have prejudges against.
IMO it's not the idea of Bullshido that's bad just the execution. Now what contitutes a McDojo is too vague to really chase. The best thing to do is make sure our own houses are in order.

Actually the more serious you take this website the more libel you become. You guys are talking about things; you have know idea what those consequences are. Nobody except a few people here probably knows what was said about the USSD. Heck there have been things said about other orginizations here that I'll be surprised if there aren't have a dozen cases pending.

I'll go on record and say that anybody who brings a frivilous law suit to court are Nazi fucks who should be castrated and are probably the epitomy of Bullshido. The reason? Nobody is seriously getting hurt by what is said on this forum. They will only sue people because they can which makes them assholes and bully **** wads.

Go away I'm talking to myself

poet
4/19/2003 11:25am,
Phrost wrote a good post in the other thread "I have a idea".

Phrost -


The best (if not the only viable) way to "shut down 'McDojos'" is to increase public awarness of standards in the martial arts, not to directly go after them.


If the general public has a more realistic expectation of what they can get out of martial arts training, they won't be taken in by people trying to sell them superhuman abilities.

And if the general public also has a de-mystified understanding of martial arts history, they'll be less succeptable to spin and chicanery.

For example, it seems that the consensus here on TKD is that it was created in the 1950s, and there is much evidence to support this. However, some have claimed that the art is several hundred years old.

It's not that the efficacy of the art should ever be judged by its age (although arts that target people looking for cultural enrichment might be judged so), but to misrepresent the art's history in order to add more credibility to your school, is ethically wrong.

What I'd like to see, and what I will help implement at least structurally here, is users submitting observations, reviews, and researched histories of individual martial arts. I will create an Articles section for each art, in which members can submit their assessments and conclusions. I imagine that some martial arts will be reviewed in vastly different ways by different people. But the aim is to provide information for people to use in the spirit of "Caveat Emptor". And the more information that is available in a centralized location, will only help increase awareness.


"I do not agree with what you have to say but, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Edited by - poet on April 19 2003 11:28:01

The Wastrel
4/19/2003 11:41am,
That's exactly my point. We air the debate, and let other people examine themselves or make their own judgements about other schools.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Shooter
4/19/2003 1:34pm,
Well, "Omega", my name is public here as it is elsewhere on the web. I have no problem with that, but I have yet to see the name of the person who tried to put me under bullshido's microscope.
Sincerely,
Bruce Pack



Rogue wrote:

Are the people questioning the legigtimacy of any school or art legit themselves.

Indeed, Rogue. Whomever decides to expose the big, bad 'bullshidoka' out there had better have a credible background and understanding of the system in question.



Wastrel wrote:

MA legitimacy Nazis are one of my targets

Wastrel, might I suggest you start with the spandau ballerina? A perfect example of someone who doesn't know **** from shinola about any MA, let alone TCC, presuming to discredit just to get a few brownie points from his bullshido buddies.



Edited by - Shooter on April 19 2003 18:03:53

The Wastrel
4/19/2003 2:11pm,
I'm sure you've noticed, I take him to task. Like I said, if he or anyone else thinks that a training debate amounts to a bullshido microscope, they're wrong.

Shooter,
You're a great addition to this community, and I hope you feel welcome. We have needed a good, credible fighting CMAist for awhile. Istill maintain that this is a good bunch of people who don't take hasty accusations of fraud very happily. What would it take to satisfy you that Blade has recanted?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

PizDoff
4/19/2003 6:57pm,
Omega-Big brother!! LOL

enough edited posts guys....

Blade doesn't know anything, just don't take too seriously what he says

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*