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View Full Version : Bagua/Xing Yi/Taiji bullshido! . . .with clips!



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Omar
12/21/2005 4:50am,
http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/applications.htm

Enjoy.

Feast upon the lamb and rejoice in his embracement of the gentle way.

FEAR the tsuan quan of Xing Yi Quan!!!

Tremble in the face of the might single palm change of baguazhang!

http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/video01.htm

...er...strike that. The bagua looks vaguely practical. Just typical slow motion demo stuff but the techniques look . . er...not terrible. Just no gongfu apparent in them.

oh...I dunno. I think I am going easy on her because she's a girl. My real opinion:

This person has no business teaching.

Cullion
12/21/2005 5:13am,
Well, I'm generally willing to give people the benefit of the doubt about technique demos.

I didn't notice anything too nonsensically mystical on the site (she explains 'Jin' in terms of biomechanics without talking about mystical energy fields for example), and she used to be into some kind of ARMA-type sparring (although there's no mention of sparring in her classes). At least she isn't 'teaching' Tai Chi by just getting people to do the hand form over and over for an hour and then giving a lecture on Chi.

Omar
12/21/2005 5:21am,
Watch the pi quan clip.

Heck watch any of the clips. Have you seen any good stuff outside of your experience with Taiji? Do you know what to look for?

Look at her mechanics.
Look at her timing.
Look especially at the Xing Yi stuff. The bagua is kind of borderline but the Xing Yi is just terrible.

I suppose I am overestimating how obvious some of the errors are. In CMA terms, no 6 harmonies, heck even the 3 external harmnies are absent. No adjustment of the lumbar region and no hollowed chest. In odinary non-CMA speak, no whole body connection. No power.

To be fair, it this was just one of our posters putting up a few clips of his or her work I could be a lot more generous. As it is, this is supposed to be the instructor. I notice that all the clips (so far) seem to be 2 women working together. While I can see certian benifits of this kind of work, in the larger scheme, if you are goinjg to pretend you are teaching applications , usage, more than just health and fun . .. these women are setting themselves up for a world of trouble if they think that this junk is going to repel anyone other than their ex-girlfriend.

The guy doing the pi quan is my "favorite". LOOK at that and then tell me how that is supposed to work? The application demo against the 2 kicks doesn't help.

Omar
12/21/2005 5:28am,
I need to really clarify.

The techniques for the most part are not bad.

The technique...in other words, the actual application of them it terrible. When I look at IMA stuff what I look for is "gongfu". Embedded skill. Power in motion. Full body integration. The specifics of the techniques are secondary. It's like the difference between Joe Shmoe's Muay Thai round kick after 6 months at Bodies in Motion and the round kick of Ernesto Hoost. Both are technically the same technique . . .but with a difference. IMA, as I think you probably ought to know, are more about the quality of the motion, the sensitivity, the relaxed power and other non-technique specific things than they are about techniques. Viewed through this lens....these clips are all garbage.

This clip:
http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/video04.htm

To my eyes, looks like an excellent way to break your arm.

Cullion
12/21/2005 5:42am,
I don't know much about Xing Yi or Bagua, and I wouldn't class myself as knowledgeable enough in the other CMAs I've done to be able to really judge somebody's fighting ability from watching them do a form, except in extreme and obvious cases of poor coordination and balance.

I could see that the movments which I'm guessing were supposed to be done explosively at full speed didn't seem that fast or explosive compared to what the good CMA fighters I've met look like when they do fast & explosive.

However, I have seen quite a few goofy-looking compliant demos in my time, including from people who it turned out could actually fight.

Tabogganwheel
12/21/2005 5:45am,
You're right. There's no way a hard block like that to a decent powerful kick would be a good idea...

Cullion
12/21/2005 5:57am,
I need to really clarify.

The techniques for the most part are not bad.

The technique...in other words, the actual application of them it terrible. When I look at IMA stuff what I look for is "gongfu". Embedded skill. Power in motion. Full body integration. The specifics of the techniques are secondary. It's like the difference between Joe Shmoe's Muay Thai round kick after 6 months at Bodies in Motion and the round kick of Ernesto Hoost. Both are technically the same technique . . .but with a difference. IMA, as I think you probably ought to know, are more about the quality of the motion, the sensitivity, the relaxed power and other non-technique specific things than they are about techniques. Viewed through this lens....these clips are all garbage.

This clip:
http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/video04.htm

To my eyes, looks like an excellent way to break your arm.

I agree with you that all those things are important. I just don't have them myself yet so I don't feel qualified to say whether somebody else has them via video (unless it's bad enough that a non-CMA practitioner can tell they look weak and clumsy).

I also can't tell to what degree somebody is 'holding back' during a compliant demo very reliably by video.

She might move differently if and when she spars. The defence against kick didn't look like it would break her arm to me, because she looked like she was trying to deflect the leg by applying force from the side rather than stop the kick by directly opposing it. What did make the demo look weak for me was the total passivity of the attacker whilst she (rather slowly) wrapped her arm around and then applied the takedown.

But that's compliant demos for ya.

Shadowdh
12/21/2005 7:33am,
I did notice that one of the ladies has no peng to speak of and in most of the punches (in the taiji part) their seems to be an awkwardness that shouldnt be there...

liokault
12/21/2005 7:53am,
Better applications.......guess which one is me!

Applications (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/brush_knee.0.html)

Also here (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/lotus_sweep.0.html)


From our new web site.

New site (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/home.0.html)

Bugeisha
12/21/2005 8:04am,
Nice site, Liokault!

Omar
12/21/2005 8:22am,
Really....very nice clips.

liokault
12/21/2005 8:31am,
Really....very nice clips.

Thank you. You didn't guess which one is me yet.

As for the clips Omar posted, well i only know about tai chi, but were they that bad? I doubt that she has any practical experience of how to use them, but the theory was more or less sound, and that's 50% of the battle with tai chi these days.

Omar
12/21/2005 9:01am,
My opinion is that the worst was the Xing Yi. The best was the bagua.

As I said earlier, the techniques were "ok".

I doubt that she has any practical use experience of there use but thetheory was more or less sound

If all you have is theory, you have no business teaching apps. I have huge tolerance for "dance instructors". I have very little for those teaching usage. While this may have not been screamingly bad in a Rad Ki kind of way, I still say that it was pretty much garbage.

This thread is making me think I really need to write an article or something. I notice an awful lot of the time lately what I want to say about a lot of crappy stuff I see out there is that it has no gongfu. . . and then I realize that no one even knows WTF I mean by that.

This woman is teaching some semi-accurate choreography with no gongfu. No gongfu = no use = garbage. You can have gongfu and no technique or technique and no gongfu. They both suck but the first is better.

When I use the term in this way I don't mean "Chinese martial arts". I mean the more general idea of "time spent". But that falls short of the mark too. When people translate "gongfu" as time spent, what they are trying to convey is something more subtle. As my teacher said of my bagua circle walking, just going in circles doesn't necessarily build gongfu or else the tires on a taxicab would have the best gongfu in the world.

Gongfu is something like the quality of a motion that has been repeated so many times and with such purpose each time that there is an emergent quality that is neither skill nor power but requires both of those in order to manifest. It is the kind of skill that gets into your bones. It's like the subconcious modulations of a motion that has become compeltely natural and instinctive. When someone has gongfu a simple technique becomes irresistable. A good pi quan is DAMN hard to stop even when you know it's coming.

The idea has no specific connection to martial arts. It's a general concept that is often used in reference to any phsyical skill at all. Guitar, Calligraphy, Soccer, Basketball, powerlifting. It's like something to do with the so called nervous pathways that get laid down for the skill.

For the taiji clips, where is the peng, lu, ji, an? They should be there in every motion. Not just peng but ALL of them. Where is the relaxed instinctiveness?

You've got a little in those clips of yours. . . .or rather, whover was doing those great sweeps and that beautiful throw. I couldn't see much from the demo's of the extracts from the form but they were usefull to highlight how the techniques were being used in the competitions.

...ah..I am not feeling like I am expressing myself clearly on this one but what the hell. I hope you get my general idea.

Cullion
12/21/2005 9:42am,
Better applications.......guess which one is me!

Applications (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/brush_knee.0.html)

Also here (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/lotus_sweep.0.html)


From our new web site.

New site (http://www.oxfordwudang.com/home.0.html)

Sweet. Nice to see Dave got some San Shou clips on there.

SuperGuido
12/21/2005 10:10am,
Thank you. You didn't guess which one is me yet.


Since you're a 300 year old 16' Chinese Ninja, we can assume that you're the hairy guy doing the slow form, since all the other pics include another person for size comparison. That must've been a really big room you were practicing in!

Actually, I'm hoping that you're the guy who owned the hell out of the other guy on the Lotus Sweep video.

Planktime
12/21/2005 10:26am,
I need to really clarify.

The techniques for the most part are not bad.

The technique...in other words, the actual application of them it terrible. When I look at IMA stuff what I look for is "gongfu". Embedded skill. Power in motion. Full body integration. The specifics of the techniques are secondary. It's like the difference between Joe Shmoe's Muay Thai round kick after 6 months at Bodies in Motion and the round kick of Ernesto Hoost. Both are technically the same technique . . .but with a difference. IMA, as I think you probably ought to know, are more about the quality of the motion, the sensitivity, the relaxed power and other non-technique specific things than they are about techniques. Viewed through this lens....these clips are all garbage.

This clip:
http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/video04.htm

To my eyes, looks like an excellent way to break your arm.


Wow Omar you are correct her tech is not bad but her timing ect is pretty awful even for it only being demonstrative. Her Xing Yi is worse then mine was and i didnt think that was possible. I will say that her Ba Gua was pretty good she just needs to realize th3 d3adly nose poke is not really for combat.

Thanks for the Clip

PT