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Vapour
4/17/2003 2:30am,
O.K. the title is troll but the content is not. Found this in E-budo. It is very long but extremely educational thread.

It's start off with gracie's judo challenge. Then thread move on to history of Kosen Judo, particular form of judo contest rule which is very similar to BJJ and pre-war Judo which seems to have much commonality to BJJ. Next is the role of groundwork in selfdefence. Lastly, there are bit of history about how wrestling influenced judo newaza.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11937&perpage=15&pagenu mber=1

Blad3
4/17/2003 4:10am,
In Judo is you do enough, "correct" ground work (liek you woukd in Judo), then use it;s practically indetical, but in fact the actual way it's trained can be quite different, i.e. Judo focusing that bit mor eon stand up, BJJ in the ground...


Lastly, there are bit of history about how wrestling influenced judo newaza. Yeah that sound slogical - good post Vapour.

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Pride25: "BasRutten:He always, when he sits down and watches TV, puts his hand, actually both hands, in his pantsFightProfessor:It's a very comfortable position actually. Bas Rutten:I never tried it FightProfessor:*ahem*, no comment"

Punisher
4/17/2003 4:47am,
That is a good thread. I was impressed that their weren't many people saying BJJ is just a rip off of Judo, while still noting the similar techniques. My personal feeling is, even if Helio came up with something that was 100% like judo, but did without ever training with or under a judoka, then he still came up with a style with no outside influence and deserves credit. It doesn't matter that someone half a world away had done it first as long as he didn't steal the idea and claim it as his own.

The other thing I liked about the thread is how it illustrated the differences between sport and real fighting. When you get people talking about the right way to win and different types of victory have more style, flash, or prestige over another, that's sport. In acutal combat, it doesn't matter how you win, just win.

Blad3
4/17/2003 5:20am,
The thing is they both came from "real" JJJ, so there is bound to be similarities.


The other thing I liked about the thread is how it illustrated the differences between sport and real fighting. When you get people talking about the right way to win and different types of victory have more style, flash, or prestige over another, that's sport. In acutal combat, it doesn't matter how you win, just win.
peopl ein sports don't generally care about how they win, as long as they win. Sport fighting is "real fighting", it's just not street fighting (which is what you meant I'm sure.) I agree with what you're saying though basically, because somtimes people do care about how they win in tornemnets... but hten again they may care about how they win when street fighting too.

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"I bet you're the kinda guy who'd **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around." - Full Metal Jacket. (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket2.html)

Dochter
4/17/2003 10:33am,
It doesn't matter that someone half a world away had done it first as long as he didn't steal the idea and claim it as his own.



The contention from people here that seem to be in the know is that this is what was done.

Madea (the instructor to the Gracies) was a high ranking judo emissary from Kano who taught the family. People here who apparently research this sort of thing say his jjj background was limited if existing at all.

They themselves then shifted their focus to essentially just the ground elements and proceeded to refine these, hence a name change and divergence from judo.



**You're all a-holes**

The Wastrel
4/17/2003 1:40pm,
How is that *stealing*? It doesn't matter. Does it work? Yes.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
4/17/2003 1:49pm,
Is it stealing because they don't call it "Judo"? They've never tried to hide it. It's different Judo, fine. Oh well. How many different Judo schools are there? Nobody bothers them.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Pandinha
4/17/2003 2:18pm,
Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu is the forerunner of Aikido.

Same techniques, Different approaches to the techniques, in some cases taking out the more violent aspects of Daito Ryu.

Are they different? Or the same?

Jiu Jitsu - Judo - Gracie Jiu Jitsu...

Get my point?





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A man without a plan, is not a man...

Nietsche

Dochter
4/17/2003 3:27pm,
It is stealing if proper credit isn't given to those to whom it should be, is it a different art though? I guess so since the focus changed dramatically. Otherwise its an argument for historians. Whether it matters or not, depends on the case I guess.

Anthony, was judo derived from daito ryu? I've never really heard clear evidence that it did but have heard that said a lot.


**You're all a-holes**

The Wastrel
4/17/2003 3:58pm,
But have they ever denied the Maeda lineage?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

SamHarber
4/17/2003 5:44pm,
Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu is the forerunner of Aikido.

Same techniques, Different approaches to the techniques, in some cases taking out the more violent aspects of Daito Ryu.

Are they different? Or the same?
A misconception. Aikido is not less violent, it has taken an internal view of how to achieve a technique, whereas aikijujutsu is external (mostly).
It looks less violent, but the end result is much the same when you find yourself several feet off the floor and coming down fast.

Pandinha
4/17/2003 11:17pm,
Sam,

Misconception my ass. =o)

Irimi Nage was created to blend into a choke.

Sankyo Nage, the knee strike was taken out.

Two examples... They were deemed to be too violent for the "Internal" and "Softer" Aikido.




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A man without a plan, is not a man...

Nietsche

Vapour
4/18/2003 3:50am,
jeesu fucking christ. I posted something which should settle number of BJJ issues which cause flame but this thread still turn into flame.

Have you nticed that orignla thread hardly bothere about *context* of judo and bjj. Instead, they talk about contents, i.e. technique such as similarlity of judo and bjj, number of bjj technique which modern *sports* judo has lost, and putting guard technique in term of street self defence. Even when they talk about history of judo, interest is more academic than flaming on who stole what.



Edited by - vapour on April 18 2003 03:52:21

The Wastrel
4/18/2003 9:19am,
Exactly. Your thread title puts it in an entirely different context. You didn't exactly disavow it.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Edited by - The Wastrel on April 18 2003 09:20:31

Vapour
4/18/2003 1:48pm,
Exactly. Your thread title puts it in an entirely different context. You didn't exactly disavow it.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Edited by - The Wastrel on April 18 2003 09:20:31


Yes, the point which i specifically clarified it in my first comment to make it clear that this thread is "educational".

The Wastrel
4/18/2003 6:34pm,
*This* thread or *that* thread? Anyway, it wasn't exactly you I was responding to. That's a pretty good thread. They miss a few things in criticizing the Gracies for their behavior at that Judo school, but then again I couldn't read the entire thing.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**