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Rogue
4/15/2003 10:10pm,
Really.

The Wastrel
4/15/2003 10:18pm,
It's for calling out frauds. You, sir, are a fraud! What kind of Rogue are you anyway? Do you have a criminal record? Misdemeanors? Felonies? Not even any traffic violations?! Highwayman? Blackguard? Villain? Scoundrel? Rapscallion? Or do you steal superpowers with kissing?! YUCK!! Step up Rogue and feel the wrath of WASTREL.

Okay, I've been drinking. I can't wait for the McThrowdowns. You people have no idea what's in store for you! First day, sure many will tope me, but on the day after a Wastrel-led debauch....TREMBLE IN FEAR AMATEURS!!!!

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
4/15/2003 10:19pm,
Oh my, a typo! Gorshk! I'm really wasted.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Kungfoolss
4/15/2003 10:35pm,
Really.


I have a question for you Rogue, are you the same joker that posted this at the Kung fu magazine forum->

'When McDojos strike back.'

rogue
Grand Pooba

When McDojos strike back.

So much for BULLSHIDO.

Official site of the winners.

http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3087&FORUM_ID=2&CAT_ID=8&Topic_

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=bbb77761f26e11a6ae087d9f4cbfd756& threadid=21498


Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

FingerorMoon?
4/15/2003 10:38pm,
You have to believe to see.

--------
Don't view the glass as half empty, view it as half full of ****.
--------

Sam Browning
4/16/2003 1:36am,
Hi Rogue:

One of the purposes of bullshido is to point out inconsistencies on other arts' websites that tend to undermine their credibility. For example if we go to the Website of United Studios of Self Defense they trace their lineage through Nick Cerio who awarded Charles Mattera an 8th degree black belt.
There is nothing wrong with Cerio himself but the website does not mention that Mattera also received black belts I through VII from Fred Villari before breaking away. (my source is http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/fv-ft.html) Similarly the website does not mention that Steven Demasco similarly studied under Villari.
This situation could have been handled gracefully by saying something like the following. "After training with Master Villari Professor Mattera studied with Grandmaster Nick Cerio and adopted his interpretation of Kempo." Instead by not even mentioning Villari,United Studio's website makes me wonder why they seem embarrassed by their earlier training under Villari.
In Connecticut where I live the Villari and United Studio chains are probably the largest providers of Kempo instruction and their studios often serve the same geographic areas. For the kempo newby who wishes to receive good istruction it would be useful to know how the two systems are now different from each other.
My understanding is when Villari split from Cerio he changed Cerio's system. Perhaps in 1990 when Mattera came under Cerio he changed some of United Studios teachings to be more in line with Cerio's system. The bottom line is that without such information the uninformed consumer will not have enough information to ask the right questions, which may determine whether they are happy in their art.
For example lets say one student loves to study martial arts weapons and another doesn't. Student A will probably be happier with United Studios which seems to love weapons training (See the article in March 2003's Black Belt Magazine) as verses Villari's which places less emphasis on this subject. I personally believe that good martial arts schools should be able to explain what makes them unique and obscuring real lineages hurts consumers by not allowing them to ask the questions that really count. (over to next posting on Mitose)

Pandinha
4/16/2003 1:39am,
Damn Samuel Browning! Great post!



==================
A man without a plan, is not a man...

Nietsche

Sam Browning
4/16/2003 2:15am,
The second problem with United Web site is that it doesn't mention that Mitose's story about how his art orginated has some serious holes in it. Both of United's versions of Kempo history have Mitose receiving his Shaolin dominated Kempo 1) directly through his family (the site doesn't explicitly mention that this supposedly entailed 20 generations of transfer) or 2) directly through a Shaolin master who was visiting Japan and got absorbed into the Mitose family.
In contrast William Durbin has written a very convincing article available at http://kempo.4mg.com/articles/mitose.htm that argues the best available evidence shows Mitose adjusted the origin of his art story as a result of strong social pressures. According to Durbin Mitose studied Okinawan karate under Choki Motobu and synthesised it with several other arts including possibly authentic ninjistsu to produce his version of Kempo.
If this sounds surprising it should be noted, according to Durban that Mitose even put Motobu's picture in his first book. Additionally by claiming that his art had a Chinese rather than a Japanese origin, Mitose was better able to teach it during World War II when there was much anti-Japanese sentiment. Was Mitose's Kempo related to Shaolin Kungfu? Probably as much as most other Okinowan forms of Karate, but this does not provide a clear, crisp, line back to the Shaolin temple.
I commend Mattera and DeMasco's decision to visit China in order to directly infuse their art with authentic Chinese weaponry and techniques. It puts them far ahead of others who never made the trip across the big water and still claim to represent original forms of asian martial arts. (See M.C. Busman's comments about Irving Soto at hhtp://www.bestjudo.com/article 13.shtml)
It would be more accurate however if United Studio did not unequivically claim Mitose as being a representitive of the Shaolin arts, even though he originated this tale under trying circumstances, as a Japanese raised man living in American territory during WWII.
I do have one other question for Rogue assuming that he belongs to the United Studio of Self Defense. in their history of Kempo, this studio describes William Chow's father Hoon Chow as a Buddist monk who taught his son Shaolin kung fu. My understanding is that Buddist monks and nuns are celibate. Do you know the answer to this inconsistancy?

Blad3
4/16/2003 2:43am,
ttt, Bullshido - helping to expose frauds in the martial arts, or at least proving that they're (the Bullshido's of this world) Martial Arts frauds.

This could be for a number of reasons.

Good posts SB!

=====
Pride25: "BasRutten:He always, when he sits down and watches TV, puts his hand, actually both hands, in his pantsFightProfessor:It's a very comfortable position actually. Bas Rutten:I never tried it FightProfessor:*ahem*, no comment"

Sam Browning
4/16/2003 10:49am,
hmmm, always be suspicious when a lineage has multiple shaolin monks. I went to http://www.karaho.com/history.html which is the site for Sam Kuoha's Chinese Kara-ho system. Sam is the current grandmaster of William "Thunderbolt" Chow's system and refers to Hoon Chow as a Buddist Priest not a monk.
Then I stumbled across Al Tracy's site at http://www/tracyskarate.com/History/Chow.htm Al and his brother founded Tracy's Kempo after breaking away from Ed Parker in the 1960s. According to Tracy, Hoon Chow was never a Shaolin Priest and even had a wife and child in China when he came to Hawaii in 1899. He left his family behind and was never able to bring them to this island because of U.S. immigration laws. (Hoon did not simply abandon his Chinese family and continued to send them money)
Subsequently Hoon married in Hawaii and this union produced William Chow. Al Tracy claims that there is no evidence that William Chow learned Shaolin Kung fu from his father and is adament that Shaolin Priests did not marry. While it is always possible that Tracy is wrong, honesty would require that the "Hoon Chow, Shaolin Monk" story should not be passed on to people without revealing that it is very squishy, read probably not correct. United could have written "One story, that is disputed and is factually inconsistant is that Hoon Chow was either a Buddist Priest or Monk" but why let facts get in the way of a good story that will impress the newbe public? There is "gold" in that yonder Shaolin temple. Any comments Rogue?

Gezere
4/16/2003 11:07am,
Samuel,

You have MITOSE and DURBIN in the same sentence. I don't think even this site can handle that much BULLshido.

______
Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!!
THE TRUE FIST OF THE NORTHSTAR!!
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2657/hyaku.gif

KC Elbows
4/16/2003 11:19am,
In Rogues defense, to my knowledge, he has nothing to do with USSD, and originally came onto this forum when I alerted him that one member was holding imaginary conversations with him, using posts he'd made on another forum.

As for the purpose, the site has a fairly wide spread of martial artists from different styles, and because the forum doesn't tend to split into "I am only on the southern forum" type posting, it exposes members to quite a few styles and schools of thought, instead of insulating them from such, which, IMO, is one of the major causes of thew bullshido type mentality. The truth is, Phrost has a substantial traditional background in addition to his MMA side, and is a really nice guy. The whole lawsuit thing was unfortunate, and something to keep in mind for the future. He's got nothing but honest intentions, and frankly gets a bad rap from some traditionalists who can brook no criticism, even when they like to dish it out.

However, if you are thinking that the site doesn't do enough about corrupt martial arts schools, seeing as it's only been around a year and a half, I would suggest you watch and see. Real reports take real research, and don't happen in one thread.

And the members are here for the community, and to see some schools that deserve to be brought to light get their just deserts. Tell me, which forum are you on that has a point, really? ;)

matzahbal
4/16/2003 11:25am,
Samuel, taken from
http://www.ussdkarate.com/glastonbury/#top

Note: I edited it, just took out the local schools information that they through in there, nothing intresting.

1920 On October 22nd of this year, at the age of 3, James Mitose was sent to Japan by his family in Hawaii to learn his family's art of Kosho Ryu Kempo from his grandfather.

1937 On February 7th, James Mitose returned to Hawaii. At this time he was the 21st Great Grandmaster of the Kosho Ryu Kempo system. He taught only until 1953 and most say he only ever promoted six people to Black Belt. (There is evidence that he promoted others as well. See Al Tracy's pages for more information.) One of these was William Chow. Chow's certificate was in fact signed by Thomas Young, not Mitose himself, but there is little doubt Mitose sanctioned the promotion.

1942 James Mitose began teaching his family's art to Americans in Hawaii. William Chow began training with James Mitose in his Kempo Jujutsu style in Hawaii. Despite many stories to the contrary, Chow only ever trained in Kempo and various systems of Jujutsu, never in any Chinese Kung Fu style. Neither his father, grandfather, nor his uncle ever trained in or taught Kung Fu. This story was apparently fabricated by Ed Parker.

1946 Adriano Emperado began training with James Mitose and William Chow.

1946-1952 With the end of the war Mitose wanted to start teaching other aspects of his family's art beyond just the "war arts." Most of his American students, however, were only interested in the fighting technique and had no interest in the other cultural aspects of the art. This is when many of the students, including Emperado, began to leave Mitose to train instead with Chow. It seems this process took place gradually over the years between the end of the war and Mitose's move to California in 1953. As one of Mitose's top students, Chow did much of the actual teaching of the techniques, as was common during this time period. At some point between 1946 and 1950 Chow left Mitose altogether and many of the students went with him.

1947-1949 Adriano Emperado, along with several other martial artists (the notorious "Black Belt Society,") first formulated the system of Kajukenbo. This system used Mitose's Kempo as the backbone of the system, but also included Shotokan Karate, Kodokan Judo, Sekeino Jujutsu, Sil-lum Pai Kung Fu and Escrima. The system was designed to be the ultimate in self defense. While they were creating the system members of the Black Belt Society would intentionally get into fights in the Paloma settlement of Hawaii where they lived in order to decide which techniques were good enough to include in the system. The system consisted of self defense techniques that were created from the Kempo, Judo, Jujutsu and Kung Fu systems, forms that were derived from Karate and others that were created by the Society and originally known as the "Paloma sets," and knife and stick fighting from Escrima.

1949 By this time Chow had begun teaching on his own. Emperado was the main instructor for Chow. It is unclear exactly when Chow left Mitose, when Emperado was promoted to Black Belt and by whom. Most sources claim Chow left Mitose in 1949. It may have been as early as 1946 or as late as 1950. In any event, it is clear that by 1949 Kajukenbo existed in its earliest form and the Kempo of James Mitose's system was used as the backbone of the new system, not that of William Chow. Chow would eventually formulate his own system but this did not take place until well after the birth of Kajukenbo and Mitose's departure from Hawaii.

1950 Victor "Sonny" Gascon began training in Kajukenbo. He did not train directly with Emperado but with some of his Black Belts. He had already trained in Judo and Jujutsu from 1945-48. He joined the Air Force in 1952, which temporarily took him out of training. In 1953, however, he was stationed back in Hawaii and resumed his training.

1956 Sonny Gascon moved to Pasadena, California.

1958 Sonny Gascon began teaching in California at John Leoning's school. John was another Kajukenbo Black Belt. Leoning had already begun modifying the system, and these modifications continued after Gascon joined him. The forms now known as 1 Kata, 3 Kata and 5 Kata were among the earliest creations in the system. The modification process took place over a period of years and it is uncertain what was created exactly when, and in what order. However it is commonly acknowledged that 1, 3 and 5 Kata came first, and then the combinations, and then 2 and 4 Kata.

1960 Sonny Gascon began teaching on his own. George Pesare began training with Sonny Gascon in California.

1961 Due to "politics," Sonny Gascon left behind the name of Kajukenbo and called his system Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Gascon enlisted the aid of his brother-in-law, Walter Godin, in further modifying the system. By 1963 at the latest the system included 1-5 Kata, Statue of the Crane, combinations 1-12 and combinations 13, 22 and 26, although these were not numbered. These forms and fighting techniques were all based on Kajukenbo material. The Katas were combinations of the shorter Kajukenbo forms and the combinations were based on the Kajukenbo punch defenses.

1963 George Pesare opened his school in Rhode Island. This event is extremely significant because all Kempo schools in New England that are not affiliated with the Parker or Tracy systems of Kempo can trace their roots to this one, single event. Pesare was the man single-handedly responsible for bringing Kempo from California to New England.

1963 Nick Cerio began training with George Pesare. He had already trained in Judo and Tae Kwon Do.

1966 Nick Cerio earned his Black Belt and opened his own school. The system he was teaching included 1-5 Kata, 6 Kata which George Pesare created, Statue of the Crane, and combinations 1-13, 22 and 26.

1967 Nick Cerio first met Professor Chow in Hawaii. Chow promoted Cerio to Shodan in Chinese Kempo. Cerio also met Mas Oyama and trained in his Okinawan system of Kyokushin Kai Karate. Over time Cerio added 1, 3, 4 and 5 Pinan, which came from Oyama's system, 2 Pinan which Cerio created, and Hon Suki which he learned from Bill Chun, Sr., who was a senior student of Professor Chow. Cerio also added the rest of the 26 combinations from techniques he learned from Professor Chow.

1967 Fred Villari began training with Nick Cerio.

1969 Fred Villari earned his Black Belt from Nick Cerio.

1971 Nick Cerio went to Hawaii to train with William Chow. At this time Chow awarded Cerio his 5th Degree Black Belt. Cerio would go on to formulate his own system. Up until this time he taught Karazenpo as he had learned it from George Pesare, with some modifications and additions.

1971 Fred Villari left Nick Cerio and started his own school in Dedham, MA. Larry Mangone was a Green belt in the system at the time and left with Fred Villari. Evidence suggests Nick Cerio had dropped Escrima from the system. Sonny Gascon certainly included it, and it seems George Pesare did as well. However Fred Villari never did. It is unclear whether Nick Cerio or Fred Villari was the first to drop this aspect of the system. By this time the system included 1-6 Kata, 1-5 Pinan, Statue of the Crane, Hon Suki and the combinations up to 26.

1971-1988 Fred Villari formulated his system of Shaolin Kempo and proliferated the system through Fred Villari's Studios of Self Defense. He added all the combinations from 27 to 108, and the forms, Two Man Fist Set, Sho Tun Kwok, Nengli South, Nengli North, Swift Tigers, Invincible Wall, Branches of the Falling Pine, Lost Leopard, Tai Sing Mon, 1000 Buddhas, Five Dragons Face the Four Winds, Snake, Wounded Tigers and Immortal Monkey and the Plum Tree Blocking System. No one knows for sure where this material all came from. Until 1971 the material up to Black Belt comprised the whole of the Karazenpo system. The Black Belt Society originally formulated Kajukenbo to be the most effective self defense system in the world. They were not interested in creating a system that anyone would study for a lifetime. When Sonny Gascon began teaching in 1958 he did so with the knowledge of a First Degree Black Belt because that was all that existed. Pesare, Cerio and Villari each also began teaching with the same amount of knowledge. Fred Villari added all the forms and techniques beyond First Degree Black Belt in his system. Cerio, Pesare, Gascon and Emperado would do the same with their systems.

1973 Steve DeMasco began training with Larry Mangone in Brockton, MA. He had already had experience in boxing and also trained with George Mattson in Uechi-Ryu Karate from 1971-73.

1982 Steve DeMasco earned his 4th Degree Black Belt from Fred Villari and his instructor certification in Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

1988 Charlie Mattera left Fred Villari and started his own chain of schools called United Studios of Self Defense. This sparked a chain reaction. Most of the top Black Belts in the Villari system would follow suit. Fred Bagely, Cal Carozzi, Jimmy Bryant, Bob Nohelty and ultimately Steve DeMasco would all leave Fred Villari.

1988 Steve DeMasco earned his 6th Degree Black Belt.

1991 Steve DeMasco earned his 7th Degree Black Belt. This would be the last promotion he would ever receive from Fred Villari.

1993 Steve DeMasco left Fred Villari and became partners with Charlie Mattera. DeMasco thus far has not added any material to the system. He eliminated the material that Villari taught beyond 4th Degree Black Belt. Villari claimed the advanced forms in the system were Shaolin forms. No one knows where the forms actually came from but they are not Shaolin Kung Fu forms.

"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

Miguksaram
4/16/2003 11:31am,
A good source on Mitose and Kempo history would be Bruce Juchnik. I believe his website is http://www.uconect.net/~koshoryu However, I am not 100% sure. You can also contact him at his dojo which is 916-988-6586. He is a pretty open individual.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

Omega Supreme
4/16/2003 1:07pm,
My question was what was posted and was it indeed false. If you are in touch with the law especially civil you'd realize that its not about justice. Most civil cases are won strictly by the human heart or the human pocket book.

Sometimes its easier to settle, in criminal court it would be plea bargaining, rather than drag it out in court. Who knows how much anybody had to fork over in legal fees just to settle.

Anybody here have several thousand dollars just to have your case heard? I'm not joking here nor am I exagerating I'm going to duplicate this post on every thread with the term "fraud" on it. You guys are getting into legal implications that you don't want opened especially if ceartain lobbyist get their way.

Go away I'm talking to myself

PizDoff
4/16/2003 1:29pm,
Agree Rogue this is a just cause?

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*