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Goju - Joe
11/30/2005 5:12pm,
I am new to BullShido and as a I am a noob I am sure I'll get a lot of insults and criticism and so on. I can take it.

I have read a lot of statements regarding Aikido pro and con that were wrong so I thought I would throw my two cents in and see what people thought.

First of all my background. I presently train in Go Ju-Jitsu which is a combination of Go Ju karate, Ju-Jitsu, shoot wrestling, boxing and anything else my sensei has picked up that he feels works (like lower leg kicks from Muay Thai) so basically it's MMA although we keep a lot of TMA stuff like kata's

I have been training for 3 1/2 years and do sparing,grappling and sport Ju-jitsu which is a highbred point system for kicks, strikes and take downs as well has hold downs and submissions. I know it's not the same thing as putting on 4 ounce gloves and beating the crap out of some one in a cage but for me I enjoy it and find it satisfies my martial art needs.

Prior to this I trained in Yoshinkai Aikido for four years

Now I am not trying to start an anti-Aikido or a pro - Aikido thread but give some opinion from someone from my own personal experience of going from a soft to hard and martial art.

So for what its worth here's my take on the on both sides of the argument..

False Anti-Aikido statement - Aikido sucks and has no practical application especially in grappling

The techniques and thought process behind it (using your opponents energy against him) is good, In grappling I have been able to pull off Aikido like moves every so often. In one of my first grappling experiences from standing I threw a green belt using a step and throw Aikido technique ( he then later kicked me really hard in the stomach during sparing, knocking the wind completely out of my which I took as a good lesson.)

False Pro-Aikido statement - I don't need to learn how to ground fight because my Kazushi and balance is so good no one will be able to through me or take me to the ground.

Uhhh no .. no. no... I thought the same thing until a large Ju-Jitsu brown belt threw me half way across the dojo. On a side note I credit the years and years I spent doing front rolls as the reason why I went with the throw instead of fighting it when it was too late and avoided getting hurt. The truth is a good Ju-Jitsu student or Judoka will own you until you learn what they know. You cannot defend against take downs by learning cooperative attacks you need to try to apply or defend it against someone who is 100% committed to making it work on you. All the spinning and dropping down of your centre of gravity won't help against a good rolling leg bar or Taiatoshi.

False Anti-Aikido statement - The defence against punches - large haymaker like strikes from over head or to the side are not realistic because no one fights that way.

While it's true anyone with any training in boxing or any striking martial art isn't going to through a crazy haymaker attack. I have seen bar brawls where that's exactly what people do. I once used the an Aikido Shi Ho Nage technique to take a brick away from some one at a frat party who was winding up to hit someone else (not me I was on the side angle so maybe that's why it worked) anyways there you go Aikido paid off in a bar brawl.

False Pro-Aikido statement- I don't need to spar. Sparring is for points and doesn't teach you anything, besides I'll just keep pivoting out of the way and you can't hit me.

BWHAHAHAHAH. There's a real simple way to learn if this is true or not. Go to a boxing gym or contact martial arts place, get a mouth piece, put on some gloves , head gear and some gloves and see how well you do against some one who knows how to throw short quick and powerful jabs. After being hit in the head and body repeatedly while trying to side step. you learn that jabs really really work and until you have had to deal with someone who knows how to throw them you are living in a dreams world

Learn these lessons .

Lesson 1.) Forget kamai and standing with you hands open and fingers exposed hoping someone grabs a wrist so you can use Sankyo on them, it aint going to happen. Believe me once you get a finger broken by someone throwing a hook kick to knock your hands out of the way you learn to close them fists. Being an idiot that's how I learnt the truth of this.

Lesson 2.) Take left hand and stick it your left temple then tuck elbow close in to your body, repeat with right hand now you look like a boxer. After spending a year sparring and constantly being hit I learned to do this and finally understood the lesson my sensei had been trying to get through my dumb ass head from day one. Which is, no matter how quick or good you are you can't always stop from getting hit, and it is therefore better to protect yourself from getting damaged. Better that someone hit your forearm than your head.

Also sparring is VITAL in learning not to flinch and close your eyes when a fist or foot comes flying at you. The flinch reflex is instinctive and only by doing lots of sparring can you train your mind and body to react properly. There's to much coppoeration in aikido practice to learn this.

False Aikido statement - Aikido is for wimps and doesn't hurt.

EHHHHHHHHHHHHH - wrong Aikido hurts. Especially some of the arm controls. I know it's not the same pain as an arm bar or rear naked choke but trust me some of the most intense pain I have experienced is from Aikido. So you do have to have some sort of threshold for pain and toughness to practice it.

I can keep going on but I need to get back to work

To sum up. I like Aikido but I know there's a more out there So to all you Aikidoka out there, don't abandon your art but open your minds and try some of the other stuff, Spar, get hit, garpple, throw learn to submit and be submited it will make you togher and better and greatly actually improve your Aikido.

And to all you Aikido haters remember there is some good stuff in Aikido and you limit yourself by making blanket assumptions that it totaly sucks. So stop picking on Aikido and concentrate on making fun of Kung Fu (just kidding Kung Fu fans) :)

Cheers
Go-Ju Joe

CanucKyokushin
11/30/2005 5:18pm,
AH! Ok!
Well you seemed to have carefully evaluated Aikido.So I take it was all an eye opener for you in many ways to go from what you consider a TMA style to what sounds like a modern style.

So you're here to tell us that your happy with Goju-jujitsu?

Welcome to bullshido noob!

BackFistMonkey
11/30/2005 5:28pm,
Welcome to Bullshido and I am glad you are in enjoying your effective yet
sport Ju-jitsu which is a highbred point system for kicks, strikes and take downs as well has hold downs and submissions. as opposed to the usually marketed as "effective for self defense" Aikido .

Darkpaladin
11/30/2005 5:45pm,
All your base are belong to us.

You are on the path to destruction. Make your time.

chaosexmachina
11/30/2005 6:46pm,
You need to milk a new fad, Darkpalidan.

roly
11/30/2005 7:01pm,
To sum up. I like Aikido but I know there's a more out there So to all you Aikidoka out there, don't abandon your art but open your minds and try some of the other stuff, Spar, get hit, garpple, throw learn to submit and be submited it will make you togher and better and greatly actually improve your Aikido.

And to all you Aikido haters remember there is some good stuff in Aikido and you limit yourself by making blanket assumptions that it totaly sucks. So stop picking on Aikido and concentrate on making fun of Kung Fu (just kidding Kung Fu fans) :)

this is awesome, an aikido guy with a grip on reality, welcome to bullshido

sadly you seem to be in the vast minority, also what is your take on the aikidoka with no grip on reality?

Goju - Joe
11/30/2005 7:11pm,
this is awesome, an aikido guy with a grip on reality, welcome to bullshido

sadly you seem to be in the vast minority, also what is your take on the aikidoka with no grip on reality?

My Suggestion is to any Aikidoka is do what i did and try Ju-Jitsu and and have reality kicked, chocked, thrown and submited into you. And have an open mind to it.

I think the Aikido I have retained has benefited from the beatings I have taken

Leonidas
11/30/2005 7:19pm,
Brilliant, nice write up and congrats on having the cahones for writing something like that. It stands as a testament that if noobs dont write something stupid for a first post, they won't get laughed off this place. Muchas respectos.

Now, if only I could write something like that :P

DayOfTheJackass
11/30/2005 8:25pm,
aaaw those responses read as though this aikidoka is the ONLY one here with a grip on reality....*goes back to laughing at .avi file clips of aikidoka training with bokkens with added light sabre effects*

Goju - Joe
11/30/2005 8:26pm,
Brilliant, nice write up and congrats on having the cahones for writing something like that. It stands as a testament that if noobs dont write something stupid for a first post, they won't get laughed off this place. Muchas respectos.

Now, if only I could write something like that :P

Hey Thanks for the compliment.

I'll try to live up to my noob status and come up with something tremondously stupid for my next post like how I have invented the ultimate Dim Mac ( is that the right phrase for death touch) that combines burping and farting at the same time.

Cheers
Joe

Jitsuman
11/30/2005 8:34pm,
unlike the other posters on this thread I'm not impressed.

You went from unproven, untested, babyfag aikido, to.....

some bullshido-ridden style of jiu jitsu that is based on "whatever my instructer picked up"

Yeah, train Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo or something respectable and type that post again.

Welcome to bullshido, thank you drive through.

(yes, I know I'm a dick)

Goju - Joe
11/30/2005 8:52pm,
unlike the other posters on this thread I'm not impressed.

You went from unproven, untested, babyfag aikido, to.....

some bullshido-ridden style of jiu jitsu that is based on "whatever my instructer picked up"

Yeah, train Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo or something respectable and type that post again.

Welcome to bullshido, thank you drive through.

(yes, I know I'm a dick)

Finally someone says something stupid and nasty. I was getting worried. Now I feel like I have arrived

Does having done seminars with Dan Severn and Carlos Newton count as something respectable. Yes? No? Who cares?

Jitsuman
11/30/2005 8:54pm,
depends on what you mean by "done"

Vile
11/30/2005 9:14pm,
Nice post in general but some flaws in your reasoning and technical advice.


The techniques and thought process behind it (using your opponents energy against him) is good, In grappling I have been able to pull off Aikido like moves every so often. In one of my first grappling experiences from standing I threw a green belt using a step and throw Aikido technique ( he then later kicked me really hard in the stomach during sparing, knocking the wind completely out of my which I took as a good lesson.)

You don't need to pay to study techniques and thought process - you can get that reading a book. Using your opponents energy against them is common to all MAs. That is not unique to Aikido. ONLY using your opponents energy against them is, and it is a stupid idea - the majority of fat unfit people in Aikido like it cos tehy have so little of their own energy to use.
If Aikido taught in a practical manner you would have found it much more useful after 4 years - it wouldn't be "every so often".


While it's true anyone with any training in boxing or any striking martial art isn't going to through a crazy haymaker attack. I have seen bar brawls where that's exactly what people do. I once used the an Aikido Shi Ho Nage technique to take a brick away from some one at a frat party who was winding up to hit someone else (not me I was on the side angle so maybe that's why it worked) anyways there you go Aikido paid off in a bar brawl.

Do you know how high the porportion of people who know how to punch is? Its massive. Stopping someone focused on attacking a third party doesn't demonstrate effective technique - a TKD guy could have tornado kicked him and claimed it demonstrated effective technique - the guy was DISTRACTED. Your OBSERVATION skills paid off in the brawl, not the Aikido. As for "works vs haymakers" get some monster bar brawler to throw some REAL haymakers at contact distance (not the "miss by a foot" distance most use) before you even think about saying it again.


Lesson 1.) Forget kamai and standing with you hands open and fingers exposed hoping someone grabs a wrist so you can use Sankyo on them, it aint going to happen. Believe me once you get a finger broken by someone throwing a hook kick to knock your hands out of the way you learn to close them fists. Being an idiot that's how I learnt the truth of this.

So that would be why full contact bare knuckle fighters like Kyokushin and most MMA competitors only close their hands when throwing a punch and block/defend with open hands right? Oh, hang on, thats completely contrary to your point. You can keep your hands open - they block better that way - but you need to keep them closer and up more, which brings us to:


Lesson 2.) Take left hand and stick it your left temple then tuck elbow close in to your body, repeat with right hand now you look like a boxer. After spending a year sparring and constantly being hit I learned to do this and finally understood the lesson my sensei had been trying to get through my dumb ass head from day one. Which is, no matter how quick or good you are you can't always stop from getting hit, and it is therefore better to protect yourself from getting damaged. Better that someone hit your forearm than your head.

BOXING is NOT fighting. It has a huge application TO fighting, but its defense is based on its equipment. A boxing guard with bare knuckles doesn't work properly, doesn't stop the damage properly, and tends to get you smashed. Badly. Thats why bareknuckle boxers kept their elbows in (you got that part right) but held their hands further away from the body to block/defend - absorbing punchs wihtout gloves boxer fashion kills your hands and arms. The only time you should cover up that closely is when a kick is coming in and you decide to wear it. Otherwise get out the bloody way - step AROUND them. The best defense is NOT being there. Gloves make a HUGE difference to how you fight (massive protection for the hands) and how much damage you do (they help you KO due to weight/concussive damage but reduce penetrative damage).

Your other points are good.

For what its worth Aikido being a Japanese Internal MA, like most Internal MAs requires good knowledge of external MAs to work - thats why Ueshiba required his students to already have a dan grade in another art. We wouldn't see as much **** that we do now if that standard had been kept in place.

To sum up - would the 4 years have been better spent and more effective where you are now, or at a Judo club, or was the Aikido good in terms of time/benefit?

Congratulation - you have been Vile-ated :)

Goju - Joe
11/30/2005 9:17pm,
depends on what you mean by "done"

By done I mean being in two 1 hour seminar with both Dan and Carlos at the MixedMartial arts expo in Toronto. Where your on a mat with them and 10-15 other people and they lead you through exercises and then show some of their take downs an submissions. I had the "privilege" of having Dan tap me on the shoulder at first and say I'll use you to demonstrate. Then proceed to take me down and show one of the most painful submissions I have had put on me. I also had the "privilege" of having Carlos Newton demonstrate some weir take down by saying you have to feel it to understand it and throw me through the air and hit me with two knees.

Also two of our Black belts came in first and second for their weight divisions at last years World Kabudo Canadian Jui Jitsu championships by beating BJJ guys.

That doesn't mean I don't suck just that it's not some bs anything goes Bullshido Jui Jitsu school. My apologies for giving that impressions.

Also I don't consider myself an Aikidoka just someone whose done Aikido has a better understanding than someone who hasn't

Locu5
11/30/2005 9:29pm,
tg;dr.