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IndoChinese
4/12/2003 3:23am,
"CORRECT HITTING IS INVISIBLE"


this is an old kung fu adage, that had confused me for many years, until i saw the simple practicality of the concept.

there are many ways to penetrate a defense, but by far the best way is to strike with an attack that is unexpected or unseen.

i would be interested in hearing some of the deceptive strategies utilized by forum members.

maybe this is what they mean when they say 'internal' kung fu?...for sure it is one aspect.


peace.

Shooter
4/12/2003 3:43am,
maybe this is what they mean when they say 'internal' kung fu?...for sure it is one aspect.

Psy-ops?

This is what I've been trying to get across to fellow players for a long time. The mental/emotional component of real fighting is the doorway to internal martial art.

My own idea of internal fighting method is how the opponent is set up for interception and pre-emptive hitting once they've commited to a predetermined movement pattern. Following by leading. Leading by following.

Maybe more later...

PizDoff
4/12/2003 5:38am,
hmmmmm, my Wing Chun teacher says "Wing Chun does not have any fakes." That's why my own martial art does. I can "deke" out most of the other martial artists at my place.

Watching where the other guy is watching can help as well....hmm that should be focusing. Cock one arm back and hit with the other, that's fun.

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

Vapour
4/12/2003 9:28am,
"CORRECT HITTING IS INVISIBLE"

Probably better way to say is if you been hit by experienced boxer, you don't know what or how being hit.

You block face, you get hit on your stomach, you try to block both then hook will hit your face from the side, when you make desperate attack, you get counter punch and you go down.

"CORRECT HITTIMG MAKES YOUR OPPONENT GOES "WTF!??"

As of my experience of WTF, once my instructor had go at me in his push hand, he just kept coming at me and whatever i did, like xingyi he never stoped his attack so I was really going "Shiiiit" and I crushed on the wall.



Edited by - vapour on April 12 2003 09:34:54

PizDoff
4/12/2003 9:50am,
not really WTF for me....i need glasses for "perfect" vision but i am fine without them

it's more like i see it coming but can't really do anything, if the guy is good

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

sanchin
4/12/2003 10:48am,
I think relaxation is the key to delivering these kinds of shots. If someones at all stiff you can see the shot coming, if they're completely relaxed when they strike it hits before you realise they've done anything.

poet
4/12/2003 11:40am,
You mean (simplified) something like a boxer who shoots a jab then a hard right behind it?

they see the jab and don't see the right. You are setting the opponent up to get the one hit in.

"I do not agree with what you have to say but, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

IndoChinese
4/12/2003 3:56pm,
just fishing at this point.

what is the basis of deception? well, false sensory input, incorrect extrapolation ( i thought it was kick?!), and sensory overload (with combination attacks.)

how do the following apply to deception/fakery?

-tactile sensitivity
-visual input
-auditory input

the three main senses involved in combat are the sense of touch,vision, and hearing.

these are the 'external' gates to the 'internal'

peace.

PizDoff
4/12/2003 7:40pm,
auditory being the least important imo....

"visual input"
hmmm, i'm going to try something next time i work with a partner

Palm strike to face, to cover eyes and then heavy hit from chambered other hand. :)

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

IndoChinese
4/12/2003 7:55pm,
try like this piz. from outside line,strike with intercept timing to bridge of the nose with left hand, following with quick low seiken (corkscrew punch) to bladder. have to hit just as reacts to palm attack. use high/low style. when his head come forward from belly punch, lift elbow of punching arm to chin(careful, unless your a dentist..lol). you can throw a low distract kick to ankle before bladder punch. multiple hits in quick sequence on different heights/gates overloads decision making process and he gets confused, slow reactions, and POW. WC trap style 'drop and drag' palms make this even better.

peace.

poet
4/12/2003 8:58pm,
Visual ones; my sifu has us do a deflection of an opponents strike to cover their face while we do a knee or leg kick.

auditory I have not seen any good examples.

haven't done Chi Sau (sp) or push hands yet.

You mentioned these are main ones are there others?
What about subtle deceptions?
Purposley telegraphing a strike but doing some thing else?

"I do not agree with what you have to say but, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

IndoChinese
4/12/2003 9:56pm,
"Visual ones; my sifu has us do a deflection of an opponents strike to cover their face while we do a knee or leg kick."

thats high/low principle with some vision obscurement.

" auditory I have not seen any good examples"

kiai is one example, i kiai-ed at a beginner one time, he feel on his ass. lol scared the hell out of him. never touched him. some people are distracted by this maneouver.

kenpo and poekulan have a method of slapping the chest, arms , and legs. this is a generally misunderstood practice. the slaps create sharp sounds coincedent with the attacks that can draw the attention. when i explain this to students, they are quite skeptical. the reactions are subconcious, and thus are difficult to detect. it can draw attention and slow reflex time. this will not work on everybody. but it is effective on many people.

" What about subtle deceptions?
Purposley telegraphing a strike but doing some thing else?"

thats a visual deception. 'bait and switch' or 'mid stream change' styles.

there are deceptions based on posture, rhythym, and distance control as well. too much for one post.

deception is an integral part of successful techniques, especially combinations. combinations are based on the need to penetrate a good defense. deception is not the only component of good combos, but it is an important one. it helps to clarify timing and to teach about counter-techniques.

peace.

Bummer the Midget Slayer
4/14/2003 4:10am,
You should consult Hans Eric Bristol on that one. I heard he is a master of deception!

"I kick ass in the name of the Lord" - the Priest from Bad Taste

PizDoff
4/14/2003 1:25pm,
"kiai is one example, i kiai-ed at a beginner one time, he feel on his ass."

hahah

KTK-ok......most of the time i'm not sure what i just did, i just feel/sense openings and attack like mad
audio-slap or stomp feet while manuevering, if looks down pop him in the head

more visual-1. make a funny face, then pop the guy and tell him not to get so distracted
2. look around, if he does too, pop him and tell him not to get distracted (i do chi sao with closed eyes a lot)
tactile sensitivity-
Pump-pretend to strike if you are touching him, then pull back and then hit him if he over reacts



--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

The Wastrel
4/14/2003 5:45pm,
Visual Input? Is that eye-gouging? You know in-put...visual...nevermind.

You're great Kuntao. Love your threads. Reminds me of my CMA days. One thing I learned to love from CMAs was the technical detail and absolute attention to almost every aspect of physical motion.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
4/14/2003 11:04pm,
I love that one Osiris. Next time you see him demonstrate parrying a punch and then say, "See, punching is useless."

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**