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Fantasy Warrior
10/15/2005 3:28pm,
There is no doubting the effectiveness of a solid punch to the jaw; it’s ability to knock an opponent down and often out. As well as anecdotal evidence of their successful use in self-defense, there is a huge quantity of video evidence of numerous full-contact combat sports events and it’s in no way mystical being caused by acute concussion. There is sufficient evidence of effectiveness to warrant including “boxing” punches to the jaw area as a logical part of self-defense training.

This is not the case with these pressure points many martial artists are advocating. There is no convincing video evidence, anecdotes are dubious and the “why” factor remains shrouded in mystery, fuzzy science and controversy.

An interesting video of a TV show where they attempted to test a notable PP exponent is doing the rounds on the internet. It starts with the PP expert performing PPKOs and no-touch PPKOs on his students, then having the same done to him. http://www.blennus.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=732&Itemid=
The TV crew took with them some paramedics who made basic checks on the KO’d students; they recorded significantly increased heart rates in the subjects. At first this sounds like appealing evidence that the no-touch PP moves had a material effect on the ‘victim’. However, what it may also be is simply a symptom of a sudden release of adrenaline; consistent with the much talked of “adrenaline dump”. If the victim BELIEVED that they were being hit with this highly effective move, this could trigger the adrenaline release. It thus shows that the victims at least believed they were being subjected to an effective move.

But is believing enough-can it explain why they collapsed? Well yes. It is often suggested that assistants in this type of compliant demonstration are the victims of their own increased suggestibility much like in stage hypnotism. Have you noticed how the PP master will often say things like “I can see you’re feeling nervous” and “this is going to hurt”. This, together with past experiences and seeing other people collapse can prime the receiver to expect to be KO’d. If the video had left it at that we could perhaps be excused for thinking there might be something to these no-touch KOs other than gullibility.

But then the TV crew let the master try it on them; no real effect. And to crown it they took him down to the local BJJ club and had him try PPs on some of their students; no effect. So with his moves only working on his own students…

The first step to actually proving PPKOs for self-defense would be a simple pressure test: can a PP practitioner perform a PPKO on a resisting opponent? The “attacker” would attack heavy contact in an aggressive manner mimicking a generic street attack, whilst the defender would employ the technique. If the defender can successfully stop the attack with the PPs then an indication of their effectiveness could be got. From there, further tests to identify which PPs are most effective, reliable, accessible and achievable by the average practitioner.

But no such tests appear to have been conducted in a verifiable and scientific way. I’ve suggested the idea of pressure testing to various PPKO advocates, as I know others have, and have always met with increasingly predictable excuses and diversions. A couple of these are worth mentioning:

The first excuse is often that they are too dangerous to test on non-compliant assistants. It is often said that the harder the attacker attacks, the harder the defender will defend… a threat of sorts to deter volunteers to play the role of attacker. It also reminds us that if a PP trained student attempts to apply the PPKO for real, it will be the first time that they have EVER applied the technique at anything like ‘real’ power, which is a somewhat dubious training ethos.

The other main one is that PPs cannot be isolated from the rest of the student’s repertoire and that the student’s defense is dependant on the specifics of the attack and thus to dictate that the defender employs PPs in the test is in itself an unrealistic abstraction. This is an intelligent and appealing counter-argument which goes straight to the heart of the “reality revolution”. But it is again only an excuse, an evasion. If PPs are effective and accessible under pressure, you would expect the PP trained defender to employ them frequently when attacked in training conditions as in the above test, a bit like natural selection. If the PP student does not employ the PPs in pressure testing, this implies that irrespective of whether they are in ‘effective’ they are not accessible in a realistic setting.

So PPKOs are unproven. Mind you so is nuclear holocaust but we believe in that. But so are fairies. As my mate Phil would say: The choice is yours Choose wisely.

Neildo
10/15/2005 3:47pm,
I trained in PPCT (pressure point control tactics) and have seen big guys go down hard and fast to a single PP strike. I think that no-touch PPKO stuff is complete garbage and like you said "own increased suggestibility much like in stage hypnotism."

This guy I used to hang out with tried to 'surprise attack' me from behind with a big stick. I didn't realise it was him until AFTER I did a PPstrike to his solarplexus and he folded like a cheap Ikea chair. When I had my short-lived 'patron transfer technician' job, I used PPtactics to much effectiveness in escorting drunk patrons out of the bar. There are some nice nerve clusters between the side of the neck and the collarbone. I've also seen a 5'4" 180 lb Philippino KTFO a 6'2" pissed-off Hindu with a single pressure point strike to the neck, A spot about a half inch to the side of the throat.

Waitaminute, shouldn't this thread be in the Techniques/Tactics area?

RoninPimp
10/15/2005 4:25pm,
There are more than "some nice nerve clusters" on the side of the neck...

Odacon
10/15/2005 4:31pm,
Pressure points exist, they're just nerves close to the skin, but their effectivness in a combat scenario are IMO zero, as you need accuracy to hit them which is virtually impossible on a moving opponent.

Nid
10/15/2005 4:35pm,
In the use of force continuum, they are one step above verbal orders.

In a police academy class of 55 in which we drilled these (because they are, in fact, so inherently safe):

-Some people were super sensitive.
-Some were senstive to some, but not others
-Some people were generally insenstive to them
-Some people, for whom the points intially worked, eventually got used to them.

Pain is something people can deal with in a variety of ways.

Or maybe we just didn't know the deadly secret ones.

Samfoo
10/15/2005 4:55pm,
Pressure points have always just proved and annoyance to me. Nothing else. I wouldn't rely on them in a fight anymore than I rely on them in sparring (that is to say--not at all).

Lucky Seven
10/15/2005 4:59pm,
I thought pressure points where just spots where the body is most sensitive, like nerves, the eyes, the neck, stuff like that. So they could work, if you could apply the proper technique and actually hit (a punch to the throat or t3h d34dly eye gouge).

Goldust
10/15/2005 6:15pm,
I think that in this context when people say “pressure points” they are referring to the Dillman like “magic” pressure point knockouts that consist of striking certain points in the magical sequence or throwing magic through the air to effect a “no touch” knockout.

lm2
10/15/2005 7:50pm,
[QUOTE=kickcatcher]There is no doubting the effectiveness of a solid punch to the jaw; it’s ability to knock an opponent down and often out. As well as anecdotal evidence of their successful use in self-defense, there is a huge quantity of video evidence of numerous full-contact combat sports events and it’s in no way mystical being caused by acute concussion. There is sufficient evidence of effectiveness to warrant including “boxing” punches to the jaw area as a logical part of self-defense training...[QUOTE]

He must bee an evangelist... :jerkit2yf

It just like that placed that teaches ki force that will take away painfull strikes. gullible's only need apply.

lm2
10/15/2005 7:57pm,
I thought pressure points where just spots where the body is most sensitive, like nerves, the eyes, the neck, stuff like that.

true but not to level these guy are trying to teach. :5shocking

MP3KSC
10/16/2005 1:57am,
My instructor once said "Don't bother using pressure points in a fight because it'll take a million years to find and even if you do find it, he might not be affected by it"

Torakaka
10/16/2005 2:19am,
Kickatcher, pressure points ARE real. They're just kept secret by a few grand masters in china. You can't learn about them or know them, but trust me, they are real.

Fantasy Warrior
10/16/2005 4:41am,
[QUOTE=kickcatcher]There is no doubting the effectiveness of a solid punch to the jaw; it’s ability to knock an opponent down and often out. As well as anecdotal evidence of their successful use in self-defense, there is a huge quantity of video evidence of numerous full-contact combat sports events and it’s in no way mystical being caused by acute concussion. There is sufficient evidence of effectiveness to warrant including “boxing” punches to the jaw area as a logical part of self-defense training...[QUOTE]

He must bee an evangelist... :jerkit2yf

Don't want to get personal here but are you actually calling me a wanker? Just that I missed the intelligent point you were trying to make.

Nate1481
10/16/2005 1:02pm,
I thought pressure points where just spots where the body is most sensitive, like nerves, the eyes, the neck, stuff like that. So they could work, if you could apply the proper technique and actually hit (a punch to the throat or t3h d34dly eye gouge).

One thing I've done is 'atemi points' i.e. week points; good places 2 aim 4 like the neck, groin etc. if the opertunity presents iself.
& some pressur points, what we did was just places that hurt & could be used 2 distract some on while u apply a joint lock, or relax ther grip so u can try and escape, not be all & end all d343dly things but an extra way of putting the other guy in pain.

It comes down to how u use them mosly on here when people say presur points their refering to people who calim vulcan deach gripps & ther equivalent,

Neildo
10/16/2005 1:05pm,
Pressure points exist, they're just nerves close to the skin, but their effectivness in a combat scenario are IMO zero, as you need accuracy to hit them which is virtually impossible on a moving opponent.

Hold on, you're not training for accuracy? So what are you doing? Just throwing a limb out there and hoping for the best?

Neildo
10/16/2005 1:06pm,
Pressure points work on people who want to fight you, but are pussies. Gives them that little push they need to make them realize that they suck.

fixed.