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danny
4/01/2003 11:21pm,
Do you think that Filipino/Indonesian martial arts should be considered "traditional"? I know that there's the question of semantics and all that, but what do YOU think?

Personally, I think that FMAs and IMAs are traditional martial arts. They have been taught from generation to generation, over hundreds of years. Silat has been in existence for hundreds of years and has hundreds of variant styles under it, similar to the proliferation of kung fu and it's different styles in China, which is where the similarities end. Most Filipino arts were developed as family systems, and passed down to generation after generation (sound familiar?). Like it or not, many of the techniques remain unchanged. It seems like no one questions the validity of these arts, as opposed to the constant butting of heads concerning kung fu and the like.

They are very deadly arts, too deadly to practice in a ring, or even practice full contact (again, sound familiar?). Where are the usual TMA detractors? Let's hear what you have to say coughBLADEWINDUcough.

Deadpan Scientist
4/01/2003 11:33pm,
They are tma, no question.

danny
4/01/2003 11:51pm,
Quit trolling.
Shut your hole wang chung.

I'm not only talking about sticks and blades, but empty hand as well. Is there a question concerning the validity of empty hand training as seen in Silat styles or FMA styles?

Mercurius
4/02/2003 12:45am,
The arts themselves, if you must categorize them, are TMA, but one poke into any Mark V. Wiley book on them reveals a world of difference from the more "Oriental" arts with which the phrase TMA is associated.

An example, from a chapter of Wiley's Arnis: in the old days, Escrima masters promoted themselves. Today, this practice is what we fight vehemently against, but it had a different context in the Philippines historically.

Any new fencing teacher to open up shop was immediately subject to be challenged to a death match, so because of that, the inept would not dare to promote themselves for fear of losing their lives.

Also, they would not be promoted by their teacher for the same reason, because by doing that, they would be signing their own student's death warrant.

Other differences include an abandonment of the pacifistic attitudes of masters of the other martial arts (i.e. the double L), bearing more respect for those who innovate something new and effective over those who stick to the old ways (see Cacoy and Momoy Canete and the new vs. old Doce Pares, as well as Remy Presas and Modern Arnis), and the attitude of "weapons first" because warriors in the old days were more likely to have a weapon of some sort on hand (bolo knives, riding sticks, farming tools, etc) than to be empty handed (also, the art was for military use).

IndoChinese
4/02/2003 1:44am,
no doubt about their being traditional arts.

and when posters slam on tma, i understand, i have seen everything they talk about in taichi,hunggar,pakua,karate,the list goes on. i have actually had to stifle outburts of laughter on more than one occasion when observing some of these traditions. the philosophy and methods of my art not 'self restraining'like many methods i see. IMHO alot of people are scared of real training so the teachers just cater to the public and make it more palatable. is it a surprise that i rarely have more than 2 or 3 students at a time?
many people say that my training is too harsh, i have had several dan grades in karate bail rather swiftly out of my training program. i do kuntaosilat which is empty hand based unlike filipino arts. but our patterns are excellent for knife work. a knife or stick just makes the techniques more powerful. some arts are inherently more dangerous because of the principles employed. there is no love in kuntao,and it is about brutal efficiency. if some one executes a full force kuntaosilat combination attack on you, it could easily be time for a dirt nap. if you havent seen traditional kuntaosilat,pentjaksilat,arnis,or escrima you may think that i am exaggerating. other arts can be as devastating, but are usually 'spiritually weakened' by various controls implanted in the philosophy. IMHO kuntao/silat/arnis are among the most combat effective martial arts to be found anywhere. their use of 'principle' as opposed to 'technique' is what often differentiates them bullshido tma.

danny
4/02/2003 2:07am,
That is one difference between IMA's (Silat) and FMA's (Kali/Arnis/Escrima). IMA's usually start off empty handed, while FMA's start off with weapons.

In Sayoc Kali, which is an "All Blade - All The Time" system, there is a saying that goes "If you see the blade it's knife fighting, if you don't see a blade it's empty hand." Which, I think, is very true.

kuntao,
I'm far from an expert on the matter, but wasn't kuntao silat the system that one of the DeThouar's created (Willem I think?). Have you played any Pentjak Silat Sera Serak by Pak Victor DeThouars? His VDT Academy is close by, and I know one of the students there. I was thinking about training there, but my schedule would not allow me to go. Which is something I regret, but what can ya do.

danny
4/02/2003 2:09am,
Osiris,
http://www.kuntaosilatdethouars.com/home.html

danny
4/02/2003 2:18am,
I'll second what kuntao is saying about silat, and it's effectiveness.

If you think about the mentality of the art, it is indeed very brutal, with very little space for mercy. The silat game involves fighting on the "inside", usually entering with some sort of joint destruction, followed by a takedown (which could involve destruction on the way down, ie knee in the back), followed by finishers on the ground, which can be very brutal.

IndoChinese
4/02/2003 3:16am,
interruptions are lovely..

gotta say about FMA vs. IMA , i would much rather you guys put down those sticks and knives and we fight barehanded. really, good kali/arnis/escrima guys are absolutely wicked. TOKUMINEBO aint gonna cut it here. most other weapon work that i have seen is really weak in comparison. our hand techniques often have amazing similarities. to me they are 'related family'.

danny, my lineage is from GM Willem Reeders. it is not specifically Serak, but master reeders did study with nes devries as well as quite a few other silat teacher. he was also instructed in fukien kuntao by his chinese uncle. so our style is a combinasi. my teacher was master reeders top student but also trained with guru willie wetzel.
willemdethouars certainly does kuntaosilat as well as others, but our styles have their differences. peace.