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Fluffy
8/26/2005 10:52am,
Is it a good idea to lift weights before training (say until 10 minutes before the class starts)?

So far I've an argument in favour and an argument against. The against argument, mentioned in one of those little Bruce Lee's Fighting Method books, isn't talking specifically about weight lifting. However it did say that tiredness leads to sloppy form that will "retrogress" technique.

On the other hand though, I've also been told that training with such resistance, will make someone get used to working harder in class, so that doing similiar MA when fresh becomes easier.

Any opinions?

Poop Loops
8/26/2005 11:03am,
The for arguement is **** for the most part. The only way regular class will become easier is if you don't give it your all. You WANT it to be hard, or else you're not getting much out of it, are you?

And you WILL be tired, and your form will suffer. Also, you just lifted. Your muscles need rest. Making them work even more won't give you all the benefits from the lifting you just did.

PL

loki09789
8/26/2005 11:07am,
Is it a good idea to lift weights before training (say until 10 minutes before the class starts)?

So far I've an argument in favour and an argument against. The against argument, mentioned in one of those little Bruce Lee's Fighting Method books, isn't talking specifically about weight lifting. However it did say that tiredness leads to sloppy form that will "retrogress" technique.

On the other hand though, I've also been told that training with such resistance, will make someone get used to working harder in class, so that doing similiar MA when fresh becomes easier.

If you know what the short term/long term goals are and how they are sequenced, you will know when and how to do 'pre exhaustion' to benefit the training.

If your going to be working on something that is tactical/technical, requires concentration and lots of small motor repetitions to engrain a new skill or refine and old one, then I say no wt.s before class. The sloppy thing counts.

BUT, if you are doing a gut check workout or a power buidling class, it might enhance the benefit.

Many athletic trainers combine Resistance/Wt. training with plyometric or power activities or Speed with cardio activities (Speed as in top running speed type speed not to be confused with 'quickness' which is how quickly the first step/first strike motion is delivered).

I dont want to sound vague, but it really depends on what the game plan is for that phase of training.

What kind of wt. traingni are you talking about? THere is always the risk of overtraining.

Fluffy
8/26/2005 12:48pm,
It's a saturday kickboxing session. Usually involving punching and kicking of the pads and semi-contact sparring.

Fluffy
8/26/2005 12:53pm,
The for arguement is **** for the most part. The only way regular class will become easier is if you don't give it your all. You WANT it to be hard, or else you're not getting much out of it, are you?

And you WILL be tired, and your form will suffer. Also, you just lifted. Your muscles need rest. Making them work even more won't give you all the benefits from the lifting you just did.

PL

Okay, wrong choice of words on my part. When I said easier, I didn't mean breezing through things and thinking "heh no sweat". I meant being able to go further when fresh than I did before.

loki09789
8/26/2005 12:56pm,
It's a saturday kickboxing session. Usually involving punching and kicking of the pads and semi-contact sparring.


If it is intense enough (basically tough as the 'advanced tae bo work out' but you know, for real and not a milf mom work out :eusa_clap ) I would say let it stand by itself. Lift the wts. on Thurs so that you can recover fully. The day after do some kind of light cardio (bike, jog NOT RUN, swim.....) that will help 'push out the ache.'

It is risky to do too much in one day. The trick is what you do in a week from week to week consistently AND changing it up every 4-6 weeks or so so that your mind, nervous system and muscles don't get too comfortable (system shock promotes over stimulation response=better results).

lawdog
8/26/2005 1:06pm,
If you know what the short term/long term goals are and how they are sequenced, you will know when and how to do 'pre exhaustion' to benefit the training.

If your going to be working on something that is tactical/technical, requires concentration and lots of small motor repetitions to engrain a new skill or refine and old one, then I say no wt.s before class. The sloppy thing counts.

BUT, if you are doing a gut check workout or a power buidling class, it might enhance the benefit.

Many athletic trainers combine Resistance/Wt. training with plyometric or power activities or Speed with cardio activities (Speed as in top running speed type speed not to be confused with 'quickness' which is how quickly the first step/first strike motion is delivered).

I dont want to sound vague, but it really depends on what the game plan is for that phase of training.

What kind of wt. traingni are you talking about? THere is always the risk of overtraining.
Excellent post.

I do both, depending on what I'm trying to achieve. I would never advocate making a habit out of lifting prior to training, but there are times when it can be very beneficial.

Sometimes I'll run (either distance or sprints) after squats. It trains me to fight through the pain and learn to perform despite muscular exhaustion. However, I don't do it all the time. I'll do the same thing prior to judo and/or boxing, but only occasionally. When I say occasionally, I mean for certain periods of time, but never long term. If you can box well after a hard weight session, then you box even better when fresh. I would not advocate this as a beginner or when learning a new technique, but for typical training it can be great for short periods of time. This is how you avoid "retrogression" of technique. You don't use this training method until your technique is already good, and then it's only temporary.

Another thing about lifting prior to training is that you can load up the teardown period, while allowing more time for recovery. So if your short term goals put gaining weight above training, it can be a good idea.

Lifting monday, wednesday, and friday while training tuesday, thursday, and saturday gives your muscles very little time for recovery. If you were to add lifting to your tuesday and saturday training, your muscles would probably benefit, but your training would suffer. However, if you're trying to gain weight, it may be worth it for a few months.

You really just have to determine your goals and look at things from a long term perspective.

Fluffy
8/26/2005 1:10pm,
If you know what the short term/long term goals are and how they are sequenced, you will know when and how to do 'pre exhaustion' to benefit the training.

If your going to be working on something that is tactical/technical, requires concentration and lots of small motor repetitions to engrain a new skill or refine and old one, then I say no wt.s before class. The sloppy thing counts.

BUT, if you are doing a gut check workout or a power buidling class, it might enhance the benefit.

Many athletic trainers combine Resistance/Wt. training with plyometric or power activities or Speed with cardio activities (Speed as in top running speed type speed not to be confused with 'quickness' which is how quickly the first step/first strike motion is delivered).

I dont want to sound vague, but it really depends on what the game plan is for that phase of training.

What kind of wt. traingni are you talking about? THere is always the risk of overtraining.

Having read through your post I can see arguments for and against the weights before the kickboxing. On the one hand, the class involves little to no new or advanced techniques. I'm basically drilling basic punch combos and kicks on the pads to get them fast and powerful, and to a lesser extent, build endurance. But on the other hand, the sparring at the end (which is definetly tactical and technical) may suffer.

Fluffy
8/26/2005 1:22pm,
Excellent post.

I do both, depending on what I'm trying to achieve. I would never advocate making a habit out of lifting prior to training, but there are times when it can be very beneficial.

Sometimes I'll run (either distance or sprints) after squats. It trains me to fight through the pain and learn to perform despite muscular exhaustion. However, I don't do it all the time. I'll do the same thing prior to judo and/or boxing, but only occasionally. When I say occasionally, I mean for certain periods of time, but never long term. If you can box well after a hard weight session, then you box even better when fresh. I would not advocate this as a beginner or when learning a new technique, but for typical training it can be great for short periods of time. This is how you avoid "retrogression" of technique. You don't use this training method until your technique is already good, and then it's only temporary.

Another thing about lifting prior to training is that you can load up the teardown period, while allowing more time for recovery. So if your short term goals put gaining weight above training, it can be a good idea.

Lifting monday, wednesday, and friday while training tuesday, thursday, and saturday gives your muscles very little time for recovery. If you were to add lifting to your tuesday and saturday training, your muscles would probably benefit, but your training would suffer. However, if you're trying to gain weight, it may be worth it for a few months.

You really just have to determine your goals and look at things from a long term perspective.

I'm not looking to gain weight. I just do a general workout covering all the major muscle areas, but I do each exercise to failure with some forced or descending reps. So the thing is, If I was to lift weights before class, saturday would be the only day when I would be doing so. On the other 2-3 training days (3-4 when I get working) I'll be starting from fresh, and should perhaps be able to monitor my "normal" performance. I think I should also mention that Friday and Sunday are days where I do no training whatsoever.

Poop Loops
8/26/2005 8:36pm,
Okay, wrong choice of words on my part. When I said easier, I didn't mean breezing through things and thinking "heh no sweat". I meant being able to go further when fresh than I did before.

Still wrong. It's not how far you can go, but how hard.

PL

Apostol
8/26/2005 10:03pm,
It's a stupid idea. After a workout, your muscles are dying for protein. By ignoring that cry for help from your body and then going into another intense workout, your body is basically eating your own muscle.

loki09789
8/26/2005 10:32pm,
Having read through your post I can see arguments for and against the weights before the kickboxing. On the one hand, the class involves little to no new or advanced techniques. I'm basically drilling basic punch combos and kicks on the pads to get them fast and powerful, and to a lesser extent, build endurance. But on the other hand, the sparring at the end (which is definetly tactical and technical) may suffer.

What kind of wt. training before class are you considering.

What Exercises,
How many sets/reps and in what sequence
What is your work/rest ratio
What is your Exercise goal: Power, absolute strength, Plyo, speed, endurance......

If you don't have a clear picture of these things from work out to work out, period/phase to phase, day to day...

Then I would STRONGLY suggest that you just treat the kick boxing workout as a substitute for the wt. training.

Look at it this way: Are you lifting to kick box better or are you kickboxing to lift better? If the answer is the prior, DO THE KICKBOXING with full focus and energy, as has been suggested before.

Combining strength/wt. training on the same day as a KBoxing style work out without a clear objective or training rationale is asking for injury.

lawdog
8/27/2005 8:33am,
It's a stupid idea. After a workout, your muscles are dying for protein. By ignoring that cry for help from your body and then going into another intense workout, your body is basically eating your own muscle.
That's not true. If glycogen stores are depleted during the weight training, he'd be using mostly fat, not protein for energy during his kickboxing, depending on how long and hard he trains But even if that's something he's worried about, all he would have to do is drink a post-workout/pre-training shake. Replace the glycogen pre-training and your body won't slip into a catabolic state. The same thing you'd do if you were going to stretch your weight training session into 3 hours.

I agree with this though:


Look at it this way: Are you lifting to kick box better or are you kickboxing to lift better? If the answer is the prior, DO THE KICKBOXING with full focus and energy, as has been suggested before.
Weight training isn't that important for kickboxing anyway, so if you have time to do a little great, but I wouldn't worry too much if you don't. You'd probably be better off spending that time skipping rope.

Now, grappling is a different story.

Lights Out
8/27/2005 9:53am,
Now, grappling is a different story.

Mind if you do tell?

lawdog
8/27/2005 10:38am,
Mind if you do tell?
In my opinion, weight training is a very important part of any grappling style. Any competitive grappler should include weight training into their training routine.

While strength training can be beneficial to a striker, in my opinion (as well as most boxing coaches) it's less significant.

Contrary to popular belief, striking power has little to do with the amount of weight a person can lift. However, controlling your opponent on the mat (and standing) has a lot to do with how much weight a person can lift. But even in grappling, technique, balance, leverage and kinisthetic awareness are still more important than strength. But when all those things are equal, the stronger oppponent will have the advantage. :cachas:

Lights Out
8/27/2005 10:44am,
Ah, OK.

I agree... unless you´re gona go up a couple of weight classes, in that case it would be important. The more mass behing a punch, the more power it will have, right? But lifting for stenght with little to no wight gain has little efect on power, that´s what you meant?

I thought you were going to say something about weightlifting before kickboxing vs. weightlifting before grappling.