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Spicyfood Jenkins
8/17/2005 12:16pm,
I searched the forums for "Tora Judo" and didn't find anything. I did find a lot of threads about black belt children, but still did not find exactly what I was looking for. Please don't flame me, i begs of youse. :icon_razz

This is for anyone in my area of Toronto, Ontario, Kanada. Hopefully you have not been victimized by any McDojos yet. My first few years of MA training was not complete McDojoism in the true sense, as the monthly rates were pretty cheap ($60 to $70 a month or so), and I believe both of my previous teachers believed in what they taught, however ineffective it may have been on teh street$.

I first started in Wing Chun Kung-Fu in my small hometown of Brampton, Ontario under Sifu Christopher Blake, who claims to have been taught by William Cheung, who I think was taught by Yip Man, still not sure about this(?). When I asked if he had a website, he sent me here:

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/

His name IS there, underneath William Cheung's lineage, and when you click on his name, it takes you here:

http://www.cheungswingchun.com/

We learned the forms and what not. Whenever I asked about grappling/groundwork, our Sifu would say something like "Your opponent should not be on top of you, he is not your girlfriend." :confused2

I trained at the school with a friend of mine named Tim (we joined the place together). Unfortunately, Tim became really sick for a while, and dropped out of WC. After he recuperated a bit, he wanted to get back to training, but decided he should start off with something slow and low-impact like Tai Chi, so he visited the Academy of Martial Arts (a karate/tai chi school right beside the chinese restaurant where we did the WC training).

I have no proof of what I am about to say next, but I have known this guy for a long time, and have never known him to spread lies. Our sifu happened to walk outside and saw the pamphlets for the other school in my friend's hand and fucking lost it. He ATTACKED my friend right there on the street, with all his students outside cheering him on! Since it was Wing Chun, my buddy was unscathed (he is also a pretty good boxer). Now Tim's suing the guy for attempted assault, me and my other friends quit and never went back.

After that, we started training in Toronto at a place called Temple Knights under Sifu Ali Siadatan: http://www.templeknights.com/

To get from no sash to yellow sash, we had to do the Lohan (animal forms) and balance a horse stance on rocks, then walk across them. The workout at the beginning of each class WAS pretty brutal, and we did lots of stretching, but no sparring, only chi kung (stickyhands), meditation and tai chi whilst holding swords.

I think Sifu Ali really believed in this ****, in that he was always helpful and really wanted us to learn, but my McDojo sensor went off when I heard him testing a guy for his yellow sash. He passed him and then said "You know, you could go for your next sash right now. You're pretty good, why don't you take the next test right now?" to which the student replied "But I don't feel I'm good enough for the next sash yet!"

As you may have guessed, you had to pay $75 for each sash test, pass or fail.

After being burned twice (even though I didn't lose as much money as some of you other poor bastards in this forum), I have switched from pak sau-ing the air to training in Judo!

The place is called Tora Judo: http://www.torajudo.com/

It seems legit, but I am totally paranoid about the rampant McDojoism now, so I'm still not 100% positive. The sensei's name is Bill Carnegie and he is a 2nd degree BB, so I'm sure he can teach me SOMETHING. But when I asked where he received HIS training, he told me "Tora Judo." (the same school he teaches at). The school is at a rec centre, and seems totally unconcerned about money. It's super cheap and the sensei's are all volunteers, which impressed me. They also don't care about me not having the proper gi, and what not, so it's not like they're pressuring me to buy a bunch of **** or anything shady like that.

My first couple classes we were practicing o soto gaeshi, seoi nage, tani otoshi, which he has told us is beginner's stuff. I have been eating mats and getting beaten like teh dicken$, which is all good, but we don't spar with headgear. We pretty much just "practice" the moves we've learned with no real resistance. The other guy just "lets" me throw him, ya know? It is also somewhat of an "umbrella school," they teach Judo, Karate, Aikido and something called "Ladies Self-Defense," whatever that is, but they do have specific sensei's for each "art."

Their explanation of judo in their brochure is:

"A combination of throws and hold-downs that can be enjoyed by both young and old alike. Senior members use our program to promote physical fitness and enjoyment. Our younger adults train for competitions that can take them all over the world as their skills develop."

They DO have tourneys, so I guess that ads a bit to their credibility. I plan to join the lowly white belt tourney and see how it goes. This brings me to my main concern...

I have seen a few YOUNG black belts in the kids judo class, the youngest probably being about 14 or 15, I'm guessing. I have read a few threads about young black belts, you guys and gals seem to think this is a sure sign of a bullshit dojo.

So I ask of you all, and your infinite bullshido wisdom... on the topic of black belts... what age would make you point and yell "BULLSHIDO?" How young is too young?

**** this is long, thanks for reading (if u got this far). Just wanted to give my fellow torontonians some food for thought, hopefully saving you from wasting some cash on ineffective hoopla. I am still wondering about this judo place. I just don't want to devote myself to a useless art like I did in the past. But in any case, i have bong'd my last sau.

werd up,
mike

eyebeams
8/17/2005 12:20pm,
Since it was Wing Chun, my buddy was unscathed.

*cackle*

If you're just starting Judo, the school might just be going easy on you to start. Have you seen the upper belts train?

Spicyfood Jenkins
8/17/2005 12:25pm,
*cackle*

If you're just starting Judo, the school might just be going easy on you to start. Have you seen the upper belts train?

****, i knew i forgot something. I was going to mention that yes i HAVE seen the other belts (blue, brown, black) training. They do go at it pretty hard, but only for like 20 mins each class. I asked if I could train with some other belts, but he said to just keep training with the whites. I am so hoping this isn't another useless school

Rah
8/17/2005 1:13pm,
They have to start you off slow at first. If you cant pull off a throw whilst the opponent just stands there, you're unlikey to do any better with someone resisting or punching you. With that said theres no guarantee it will go any further than normal judo competition sparring. I'd suggest going for a few more sessions and see if you can get a better glimpse at what higher belts do.

As for kid black belts. i've read about some bjj schools that offer belts to kids, black being one of them. however once that kid reaches adult age (usually about 16 in ma's i think) then it is possible they are at the stage to test for their adult blue belt. So its feasible that a kids bb in judo = a lower adult belt. Maybe you can ask the school about it.

JohnnyFive
8/17/2005 1:20pm,
Some Judo schools want you to do a bit of practicing with the falling and whatnot before they put you into randori. I'm not sure what the Australian kid black belt policy is, but in the USJA, they can only make it to blue.

Yrkoon9
8/17/2005 1:28pm,
Sounds fine to me.

They don't want the white belts taking a bad throw early and quitting. Plus you need to know some techniques before they just throw you into sparring. And last but not least, as you are finding out, your body needs to be able to take the abuse of falling.

Nothing you said indicated Bullshido or Mcdojo. Enjoy your training. Judo is an excellent way to integrate grappling into your previous experience in martial arts.

Spicyfood Jenkins
8/17/2005 4:38pm,
thanks rah and yrkoon for the info!

Spicyfood Jenkins
8/17/2005 4:40pm,
Some Judo schools want you to do a bit of practicing with the falling and whatnot before they put you into randori. I'm not sure what the Australian kid black belt policy is, but in the USJA, they can only make it to blue.

thanks, that makes sense actually. prolly just taking it easy on me since i'm a lowly white belt. so there is an age limit for BB's in USJA?

dakotajudo
8/17/2005 6:47pm,
It seems legit, but I am totally paranoid about the rampant McDojoism now, so I'm still not 100% positive.

Judo is one of the least likely candidates for McDojoism, unless they, like, never send anybody to tournaments. Kinda hard to maintain the illusion if your students go to tournaments, and see and get beaten by the good players.



My first couple classes we were practicing o soto gaeshi, seoi nage, tani otoshi, which he has told us is beginner's stuff.
Tani otoshi as a beginner move? Ouch.


but we don't spar with headgear.
Wouldn't expect to.



We pretty much just "practice" the moves we've learned with no real resistance.
Which is how you learn the principles of the technique.



They DO have tourneys, so I guess that ads a bit to their credibility. I plan to join the lowly white belt tourney and see how it goes.
How soon to the tourney, and how much do you randori?

I can understand limiting standing randori for raw beginners, but if they don't at least let you randori from your knees, that may be some concern - it might imply an over-emphasis on tachi waza.

Personally, in my club, we spend a lot of time throwing, but I also believe in getting beginners into randori as soon as possible, so the first class is usually matwork, with about 10-15 minutes randori at the end. Starting in the the knees - a lot of the skills transfer.

Though I do seem to lose a lot of beginners that way.



I have seen a few YOUNG black belts in the kids judo class, the youngest probably being about 14 or 15, I'm guessing. I have read a few threads about young black belts, you guys and gals seem to think this is a sure sign of a bullshit dojo.
I know of a 16 year old who's a black belt (or, perhaps, I should say, I know a judoka who was a black belt at 16 - I assume he's older now).

He's solid - I played a little with him after a seminar. IIRC, he sometimes competes in the senior divisions at tournaments.

In the U.S., the major orgs won't recognize a B.B. below 16, I believe. I had a teenage student, trained up to brown belt level (but a different color for junior rank, blue, I think) - I'm pretty sure I told him he wouldn't be eligible for B.B. until he was 16.


But in any case, i have bong'd my last sau.
So that's what you kids call it these days. :)

Bil Gee
8/17/2005 8:34pm,
I searched the forums for "Tora Judo" and didn't find anything. I did find a lot of threads about black belt children, but still did not find exactly what I was looking for. Please don't flame me, i begs of youse. :icon_razz

This is for anyone in my area of Toronto, Ontario, Kanada. Hopefully you have not been victimized by any McDojos yet. My first few years of MA training was not complete McDojoism in the true sense, as the monthly rates were pretty cheap ($60 to $70 a month or so), and I believe both of my previous teachers believed in what they taught, however ineffective it may have been on teh street$.

I first started in Wing Chun Kung-Fu in my small hometown of Brampton, Ontario under Sifu Christopher Blake, who claims to have been taught by William Cheung, who I think was taught by Yip Man, still not sure about this(?). When I asked if he had a website, he sent me here:

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/

His name IS there, underneath William Cheung's lineage, and when you click on his name, it takes you here:

http://www.cheungswingchun.com/

We learned the forms and what not. Whenever I asked about grappling/groundwork, our Sifu would say something like "Your opponent should not be on top of you, he is not your girlfriend." :confused2

I trained at the school with a friend of mine named Tim (we joined the place together). Unfortunately, Tim became really sick for a while, and dropped out of WC. After he recuperated a bit, he wanted to get back to training, but decided he should start off with something slow and low-impact like Tai Chi, so he visited the Academy of Martial Arts (a karate/tai chi school right beside the chinese restaurant where we did the WC training).

I have no proof of what I am about to say next, but I have known this guy for a long time, and have never known him to spread lies. Our sifu happened to walk outside and saw the pamphlets for the other school in my friend's hand and fucking lost it. He ATTACKED my friend right there on the street, with all his students outside cheering him on! Since it was Wing Chun, my buddy was unscathed (he is also a pretty good boxer). Now Tim's suing the guy for attempted assault, me and my other friends quit and never went back.

After that, we started training in Toronto at a place called Temple Knights under Sifu Ali Siadatan: http://www.templeknights.com/

To get from no sash to yellow sash, we had to do the Lohan (animal forms) and balance a horse stance on rocks, then walk across them. The workout at the beginning of each class WAS pretty brutal, and we did lots of stretching, but no sparring, only chi kung (stickyhands), meditation and tai chi whilst holding swords.

I think Sifu Ali really believed in this ****, in that he was always helpful and really wanted us to learn, but my McDojo sensor went off when I heard him testing a guy for his yellow sash. He passed him and then said "You know, you could go for your next sash right now. You're pretty good, why don't you take the next test right now?" to which the student replied "But I don't feel I'm good enough for the next sash yet!"

As you may have guessed, you had to pay $75 for each sash test, pass or fail.

After being burned twice (even though I didn't lose as much money as some of you other poor bastards in this forum), I have switched from pak sau-ing the air to training in Judo!

The place is called Tora Judo: http://www.torajudo.com/

It seems legit, but I am totally paranoid about the rampant McDojoism now, so I'm still not 100% positive. The sensei's name is Bill Carnegie and he is a 2nd degree BB, so I'm sure he can teach me SOMETHING. But when I asked where he received HIS training, he told me "Tora Judo." (the same school he teaches at). The school is at a rec centre, and seems totally unconcerned about money. It's super cheap and the sensei's are all volunteers, which impressed me. They also don't care about me not having the proper gi, and what not, so it's not like they're pressuring me to buy a bunch of **** or anything shady like that.

My first couple classes we were practicing o soto gaeshi, seoi nage, tani otoshi, which he has told us is beginner's stuff. I have been eating mats and getting beaten like teh dicken$, which is all good, but we don't spar with headgear. We pretty much just "practice" the moves we've learned with no real resistance. The other guy just "lets" me throw him, ya know? It is also somewhat of an "umbrella school," they teach Judo, Karate, Aikido and something called "Ladies Self-Defense," whatever that is, but they do have specific sensei's for each "art."

Their explanation of judo in their brochure is:

"A combination of throws and hold-downs that can be enjoyed by both young and old alike. Senior members use our program to promote physical fitness and enjoyment. Our younger adults train for competitions that can take them all over the world as their skills develop."

They DO have tourneys, so I guess that ads a bit to their credibility. I plan to join the lowly white belt tourney and see how it goes. This brings me to my main concern...

I have seen a few YOUNG black belts in the kids judo class, the youngest probably being about 14 or 15, I'm guessing. I have read a few threads about young black belts, you guys and gals seem to think this is a sure sign of a bullshit dojo.

So I ask of you all, and your infinite bullshido wisdom... on the topic of black belts... what age would make you point and yell "BULLSHIDO?" How young is too young?

**** this is long, thanks for reading (if u got this far). Just wanted to give my fellow torontonians some food for thought, hopefully saving you from wasting some cash on ineffective hoopla. I am still wondering about this judo place. I just don't want to devote myself to a useless art like I did in the past. But in any case, i have bong'd my last sau.

werd up,
mike

I was going to jump in to defend Wing Chun until I noticed the William Cheung reference.

William Cheung studied with and paid a lot of money to Yip Man and then went off to Australia announcing that he had the "Only True Wing Chun" and none of Yip Man's other students knew ****. He claimed the he had been selected as the grandmaster of Wing Chun after the death of Yip Man.

Yip Man's other students just shrugged their shoulders and set up their own schools. The odd thing is that the actual techniques that Cheung taught were radically different to the techniques that the rest of Yip Man's ex-students were teaching (even his two sons). Yip Man used to modfy what he taught to suite the individual needs of the students apparently and there was always some variation. But William Cheung's variation was way off the scale and he argued that this was because Yip Man had passed the true Wing Chun onto him.

Anyway he the proceeded to open a string of Wing Chun Mcdojos across Australia and the US and lay claim to all sorts of fancy titles that he made up himself. Instead of teaching what is a stripped down system for stand up fighting, he threw in a lot of "Chi" crap, and some spiritual tree hugging ****, because that's what the public wanted.

So if you don't think your fighting skills will benefit from 2 hours of focused breathing or you aren't interested in feng shui flower arranging tournaments the Cheung school isn't for you.

TehDeadlyDimMak
8/17/2005 8:39pm,
And which of the many lineages are you from?

Bil Gee
8/17/2005 8:59pm,
And which of the many lineages are you from?


Ip Chung, no nonsense no spirtuality, no chi just learning how to hit people.

So before anyone says it, despite the fact that I know about "the d33dly" MMA BBJ UFC holy trinity I have still elected to spend my eveninings standing like a chinese girl who's wet her knickers playing pat-a-cake with occassional flurrys of puny rabbit punches. And despite the fact that I am feminizing myself to the point where I've started to grow breasts I still go back and train night after night. So spare me the MMA envangalism please.

William Cheungs schools show all the features of proper commercial dojos. Most other wing chun schools are different, and whilst I've no doubt there are many people who have a burning desire to talk about their many faults, they aren't big commercial enterprises.

Hence my advice to steer clear of Cheung's schools.

Cullion
8/18/2005 3:05am,
Do you mean Ip Chun or Ip Ching ?

Bil Gee
8/18/2005 5:38am,
Do you mean Ip Chun or Ip Ching ?

Ip Ching

Spicyfood Jenkins
8/18/2005 1:34pm,
Judo is one of the least likely candidates for McDojoism, unless they, like, never send anybody to tournaments. Kinda hard to maintain the illusion if your students go to tournaments, and see and get beaten by the good players.

tru dat. that's what i liked about judo, and hearing other people talk about it on the forums made me curious enough to check it out. i really like the tournament idea. originally i was a "i dont want to compete" type of guy, but if i figured if i want to make sure my style is good enough, i better get my ass to a tourney or two, and at the very least start sparring with people.


Tani otoshi as a beginner move? Ouch.

ya, an orange belt showed it to me. my back hurts! lol


How soon to the tourney, and how much do you randori?

kay so if i remember correctly, randori is where me and another judoka try to throw each other right? and tachi waza is where we practice our throws, right? well i haven't got to randori at all yet, but i've only been to like six classes. They just teach me throwing techniques so far, but I see the yellow belts doing randori, on their knees and standing.


Personally, in my club, we spend a lot of time throwing, but I also believe in getting beginners into randori as soon as possible, so the first class is usually matwork, with about 10-15 minutes randori at the end. Starting in the the knees - a lot of the skills transfer.

Though I do seem to lose a lot of beginners that way.

****, why can't i live near you. I want to do that **** NOW! lol


So that's what you kids call it these days. :)

hehe bong sau, pak sau, trap, whoops!

Thanks for all the info man, i appreciate it.

mike

Spicyfood Jenkins
8/18/2005 1:40pm,
I was going to jump in to defend Wing Chun until I noticed the William Cheung reference.

William Cheung studied with and paid a lot of money to Yip Man and then went off to Australia announcing that he had the "Only True Wing Chun" and none of Yip Man's other students knew ****. He claimed the he had been selected as the grandmaster of Wing Chun after the death of Yip Man.

Yip Man's other students just shrugged their shoulders and set up their own schools. The odd thing is that the actual techniques that Cheung taught were radically different to the techniques that the rest of Yip Man's ex-students were teaching (even his two sons). Yip Man used to modfy what he taught to suite the individual needs of the students apparently and there was always some variation. But William Cheung's variation was way off the scale and he argued that this was because Yip Man had passed the true Wing Chun onto him.

Anyway he the proceeded to open a string of Wing Chun Mcdojos across Australia and the US and lay claim to all sorts of fancy titles that he made up himself. Instead of teaching what is a stripped down system for stand up fighting, he threw in a lot of "Chi" crap, and some spiritual tree hugging ****, because that's what the public wanted.

So if you don't think your fighting skills will benefit from 2 hours of focused breathing or you aren't interested in feng shui flower arranging tournaments the Cheung school isn't for you.


**** sakes! See I have been googling William Cheung to no avail, but I totally expected to find something like this. Just the attitude of "Sifu Chris" and him saying he's part of the WC lineage and all that, I just never believed he was legit. Turns out he IS part of it, but taught by this guy, now I see clearly.

So William paid to play, huh? I wonder if he even actually trained with him. We never learned anything about Chi, but our Sifu had a gut which made me wonder.