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View Full Version : Style vs. REAL TCMA Style?



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onyomi
8/10/2005 4:48pm,
I'm sick of: "look at this guy who's only been doing BJJ for six months beat this guy who supposedly has done some kind of Kung Fu for an indeterminate amount of time." The problem is that how good people are at a given MA after six months of practice is not an indicator of the quality or depth of that MA. I'd be willing to admit that if your goal is: I want to make a significant improvement in my ability to defend myself within the next six months then BJJ would be a better choice than TCMA. However, if your goal is "I am willing to devote a large hunk of my time for the next ten years to completely change how my body works and how I would react in a self defense situation," then TCMA is for you.

Another thing that bugs me is that I have NEVER seen a video of an actual Chinese CMAist vs. anyone on any of these forums (no, not a new Wushu person, not some ABC who claims to do Wing Chun and certainly not some Japanese guy who claims to do "drunken style"--I mean a Chinese person who has studied TCMA in China, Hong Kong or Taiwan for a minimum of five years.) I'm not saying it's not possible for westerners to be good at CMA, but as someone who has studied CMA in America, Beijing and Taipei, I can tell you that there is NO comparison between the quality of CMA usually practiced in America versus China and Taiwan. It's not fair to say: "look at this guy who says he does Kung Fu lose to guy who does martial art x" as any sort of evidence for the failure of TCMA when the so-called TCMAist clearly hasn't the slightest clue what TCMA is. Thus far I haven't seen ANYONE with ANY real TCMA ability in any of these clips on Bulshido. If your reaction to this statement is "you're just whining," then please show me a style vs. style clip with a TCMA practitioner fitting the above-mentioned criteria and I'll be willing to concede some kind of point about TCMA. As it is, the style vs. style videos I have seen involving so called TCMAists are proof of NOTHING in regard to TCMA because none of them have any real TCMAists in them.

Also, in order to give the viewer ANY idea of what the so-called "Kung Fu stylist" is even trying to do, you have to be much more specific about what they practice. "Kung Fu" as a term is at least, if not more broad a term than "western combat arts." You wouldn't say I do "Japanese Martial Arts." You say, "I do Kyokushin Karate, I do Aikido, I do Judo, etc." Why then do we say "Kung Fu Stylist"?

Ian G.R.
8/10/2005 4:55pm,
Zzzzzzzzzzz


"search Function"...blah blah blah...In case that fails you...I can give EVIL EMPEROR ASIA!!!ONE!ELLEVEN as an example as a pure CMA practitioner in the standup respect (possible caveat: he might have done karate at one point). There's a vid of him somewhere on the forum where he showboats and does some pure BAJI!

JohnnyCache
8/10/2005 5:13pm,
SO they can't have the real kung fu if they aren't chinese and haven't studied in china?

JBliss
8/10/2005 5:24pm,
Man...

I want to ride with on this one, I do, I really, really do...but
as yet another ex-TCMA-er ( Shuai Chiao from ISCA Ho Chun school www.shuaichiao.com)
I have got to say
forget it
you will never find what you are looking for
you will never see anyone move like you think they can move
you will never find the untouchable old man who knows both the way and its power
these things never did, never have, and never will exist.

understand that the truth is simple
if you don't go all out in training
if you don't actually FIGHT in fight class
you are just doing step aerobics

Gezere
8/10/2005 5:25pm,
I'm sick of: "look at this guy who's only been doing BJJ for six months beat this guy who supposedly has done some kind of Kung Fu for an indeterminate amount of time." The problem is that how good people are at a given MA after six months of practice is not an indicator of the quality or depth of that MA. I'd be willing to admit that if your goal is: I want to make a significant improvement in my ability to defend myself within the next six months then BJJ would be a better choice than TCMA. However, if your goal is "I am willing to devote a large hunk of my time for the next ten years to completely change how my body works and how I would react in a self defense situation," then TCMA is for you.

Another thing that bugs me is that I have NEVER seen a video of an actual Chinese CMAist vs. anyone on any of these forums (no, not a new Wushu person, not some ABC who claims to do Wing Chun and certainly not some Japanese guy who claims to do "drunken style"--I mean a Chinese person who has studied TCMA in China, Hong Kong or Taiwan for a minimum of five years.) I'm not saying it's not possible for westerners to be good at CMA, but as someone who has studied CMA in America, Beijing and Taipei, I can tell you that there is NO comparison between the quality of CMA usually practiced in America versus China and Taiwan. It's not fair to say: "look at this guy who says he does Kung Fu lose to guy who does martial art x" as any sort of evidence for the failure of TCMA when the so-called TCMAist clearly hasn't the slightest clue what TCMA is. Thus far I haven't seen ANYONE with ANY real TCMA ability in any of these clips on Bulshido. If your reaction to this statement is "you're just whining," then please show me a style vs. style clip with a TCMA practitioner fitting the above-mentioned criteria and I'll be willing to concede some kind of point about TCMA. As it is, the style vs. style videos I have seen involving so called TCMAists are proof of NOTHING in regard to TCMA because none of them have any real TCMAists in them.

Also, in order to give the viewer ANY idea of what the so-called "Kung Fu stylist" is even trying to do, you have to be much more specific about what they practice. "Kung Fu" as a term is at least, if not more broad a term than "western combat arts." You wouldn't say I do "Japanese Martial Arts." You say, "I do Kyokushin Karate, I do Aikido, I do Judo, etc." Why then do we say "Kung Fu Stylist"?

PLEASE STFU and go kill yourself.

If you think you have a point the PLEASE STEP THE **** UP!!! HAVE YOUR TEACHER COME AND GET SMACKED DOWN TOO. I AM SICK OF YOU WEAK TCMA GUYS COMING HERE WITHOUT THE NUTS TO STAND UP!!! I HAVE BEEN TO CHINA! I HAVE TRAINED WITH PPLE LIKE LEE KOON HUNG!!! I'VE EVEN BE TO TWO SHAOLIN TEMPLES. SO DON'T COME HERE FUCKING LECTURING ABOUT REAL TCMA!! YOU ARE A WEAK BITCH AND YOUR INSTRUTOR IS A WEAK BITCH AND I WILL SLAP YOU BOTH AROUND!!! IF YOU GOT THE NUTS THEN SET IT UP SO I CAN SHOW YOU HOW WEAK YOU ARE!!!!

ALL HAIL ASIA!!!
:bowdown:

roly
8/10/2005 5:28pm,
*applauds loudly*

well said asia, and blablabla where is the cma in the pride/ufc/k1 blablabla etc etc read a million different threads with the same arguments

JBliss
8/10/2005 5:32pm,
and while you are at it...MAN THE **** UP

Ian G.R.
8/10/2005 5:32pm,
Man...

I want to ride with on this one, I do, I really, really do...but
as yet another ex-TCMA-er ( Shuai Chiao from ISCA Ho Chun school www.shuaichiao.com)
I have got to say
forget it
you will never find what you are looking for
you will never see anyone move like you think they can move
you will never find the untouchable old man who knows both the way and its power
these things never did, never have, and never will exist.

understand that the truth is simple
if you don't go all out in training
if you don't actually FIGHT in fight class
you are just doing step aerobics

Omar (from this site) claims he has found teh r3al TCMA, old invincible master and all...But rather, I believe he's the exception that proves the rule.

As a Cma'ist (and an ICMA'ist at that) I know I suck. I do it for recreation....Judo has been much more helpfull for me.

Samfoo
8/10/2005 5:33pm,
Tim Cartmell.

Besides, no one here disputes that style is a defining aspect anyway. What we do say is that the majority of TCMA'ists don't have any skill. That's not to say the art is worthless or that there aren't people out there that can kick ass with them (Tim and Asia being good examples). More importantly though, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. do show the majority of their practitioners with a degree of fighting skill. That's not to say that all of them are badasses, but a larger majority than CMA.

onyomi
8/10/2005 5:38pm,
For one thing, if you read my post you will note that I specifically said I WAS NOT saying that white people are unable to learn real TCMA, just that I've never seen one doing it on any of the clips. If you can link me to a clip of someone using what you consider to be good Baji then please do so. If you want to tell my Shifu he's full of **** in person then please go to Kung-Fu Loung School on Xinyi-lu (Taipei), ask for Zhou Baofu and do so. If you manage to get him to take you seriously you will get your ass handed to you. If you just outright attack him without warning you'll be lucky to walk out alive. If you can't go to Taiwan then come to New Orleans and tell me I am full of it and I will spar with you using what TCMA I have learned in a still very-much insufficient three years thus far.

Before starting Northern Praying Mantis, Taiji and Bagua, I studied Judo for about three years and then Shotokan Karate for another four. I know I can't speak as to the validity of the former two arts from such brief experience, but I can honestly say that my actual fighting ability increased more in any given month of TCMA training than it did in all those years of Judo and Karate. I agree that most American TCMAists suck... in fact, that's precisely my point. I'm NOT trying to say "I KNOW THE SUPER ULTIMATE SECRET MAGIC ANCIENT CHINESE ART THAT IS BETTER THAN EVERYYTHING YOU GUYS DO." I'm trying to say that if you're going to judge TCMA based on a video, then the TCMAist has to actually know some TCMA.

FingerorMoon?
8/10/2005 5:43pm,
Don't chase this n00b off.
Bullshido is the most fun when we have people here from all styles arguing.
It's so boring when its a bunch of BJJ and MMA guys standing around patting each other on the back.

Saying that, there is the clip of William Cheung (sp?) on here looking less than stellar.
If you can't claim he is a true chinese master of TCMA, then I'm not sure who can claim that ?

Ian G.R.
8/10/2005 5:47pm,
I see you completely miss the point.....

Ack! T3h d34dly [email protected]!11one!elleven


BTW Omar is white, Tim Cartmell is white and ASIA is sexy chocolately brown......

oh and i have a little shrine btw...

Gezere
8/10/2005 5:56pm,
For one thing, if you read my post you will note that I specifically said I WAS NOT saying that white people are unable to learn real TCMA, just that I've never seen one doing it on any of the clips. If you can link me to a clip of someone using what you consider to be good Baji then please do so. If you want to tell my Shifu he's full of **** in person then please go to Kung-Fu Loung School on Xinyi-lu (Taipei), ask for Zhou Baofu and do so. If you manage to get him to take you seriously you will get your ass handed to you. If you just outright attack him without warning you'll be lucky to walk out alive. If you can't go to Taiwan then come to New Orleans and tell me I am full of it and I will spar with you using what TCMA I have learned in a still very-much insufficient three years thus far.

You're on. Lets set this up so I can kick your ass. When you done kicking your ass will you STFU? Then I will stomp you instructor for allowing to pollute this site. His pain will be for your sins!

PM so we can get this rolling.

Cassius
8/10/2005 6:10pm,
You're on. Lets set this up so I can kick your ass. When you done kicking your ass will you STFU? Then I will stomp you instructor for allowing to pollute this site. His pain will be for your sins!

Oh dear. Onyomi, perhaps you should go ahead and calm down a little. Maybe ask for a FRIENDLY sparring match from Asia?

BTW he is a mostly traditional CMAist. I'm a newbie around here and have seen videos of him using CMA to fight people. I think you misunderstand Bullshido's goals. They aren't to try to destroy all the TMAs/CMAs. If you are a CMA/TMAist and you can fight, we give you props. The problem is at least in AMERICA (I can't speak for the rest of the world) that TMAs/CMAs/Whatever seem to be overrun with Bullshido/McDojo artists. IF you are truly a legitimate CMAist, a friendly challenge would have been a lot smarter than pissing Asia off.

onyomi
8/10/2005 6:12pm,
When I try to PM you it says something along the lines of "you don't have this privelage." If you pm me first maybe I can respond? Either that or PM me with your email and I can email you back. Though... you do Baji, correct? How will you beating me prove anything about TCMA? Nonetheless, if you're willing to come all the way to New Orleans then I'll be glad to spar with you.

...as to pissing Asia off, I'm not exactly sure what I said that sent him off so. It wasn't my intent. I would like a friendly sparring match and have no desire to engage in anything else.

Samfoo
8/10/2005 6:16pm,
When I try to PM you it says something along the lines of "you don't have this privelage." If you pm me first maybe I can respond? Either that or PM me with your email and I can email you back. Though... you do Baji, correct? How will you beating me prove anything about TCMA? Nonetheless, if you're willing to come all the way to New Orleans then I'll be glad to spar with you.

His point, I believe (Asia, correct me if I'm wrong) is that those who complain about the TCMA's being overrun with crappy instructors and non-fighters are typically crappy instructors and non-fighters themselves who spend more time politiking than they do training to fight and spend more time sitting in stances and doing forms than sparring.