PDA

View Full Version : An RBSD paradox?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7

Utah
7/18/2005 6:36pm,
First, thanks to everyone helping me out with the search for an NYC BJJ school a few months ago. If anyone wants to hear the story of how that went, let me know (otherwise I won't waste the space).

I've enjoyed reading Bullshido (as has my roomate) and have naturally been caught up in some of the debates about some of the oddities in the martial arts world.

------------
For the rest of this, I'm assuming that RBSD practitioners train first and foremost for the practical skill of surviving a violent confrontation first, and for fun and enjoyment second (I know, I know....it's not always the case). I'm also assuming the RBSD practioner goes to the average number of classes as any MAist on an ongoing basis, not just a weekend seminar.

Something that always strikes me about reading about RBSD is the common saying of "survival at any costs". This implies a value judgement - that your life is so valuable, any tactic can be justified in protecting it. Thus there is a permium on extending one's life - my life is so valuable, I will kill you if you try to take it from me. Thus, sitting atop the RBSD heirarchy of values, is the maintenance of their own life.

However, I was struck by the massive amounts of resources (both the opportunity cost of the time spend training, which is substantial, and the monetary value of training spent) that an RBSDer spends on training splashing around with fake blood, engaging in "sitation drills", and god knows whatever else.

Is spending all of that time on "survival" really efficient?

Here, from the Center for Disease Control in 2002, are the top ten leading causes of death in the United States:

1. Heart
Disease
696,947

2. Malignant
Neoplasms
557,271

3. Cerebro-
vascular
162,672

4. Chronic Low.
Respiratory
Disease
124,816

5. Unintentional
Injury
106,742

6. Diabetes
Mellitus
73,249

7. Influenza
& Pneumonia
65,681

8. Alzheimer's
Disease
58,866

9. Nephritis
40,974

10. Septicemia
33,865

Notably, homicide is not in the top 10. In fact, homicide is below suicide (#11) at #14, with a miniscule 17,638 deaths.

You're more likely to die of the flu than be murdered. You're more likely to kill yourself than be murdered. And you're vastly, vastly more likely to die of heart disease than be murdered.

Thus, is it really efficient to spend 8 hours a week on what is essentially murder-prevention training? If the RBSD guys were honest about all of the "survival at any cost" ****, shouldn't they take those 8 hours and try and workout and educate themselves about heart disease, take defensive driving classes, or try and prevent any of the causes of death that they are far more likely to fall prey to? You might as well put up that meteor shield over your house you've been wanting to build - applying the batshit crazy RBSD rationale, it makes as much sense.

If your ife is so valuable, maybe you should put down the fake gun and get on the fucking stairmaster instead and stop being such a hyopcrite.


So either RBSD really is just done for fun and enjoyment yet no one wants to admit this (not likely), or there is an alternative reason why a segment (extremely small, granted) of the population grossly, grossly overestimates the likelihood that they will be murdered.

Because RBSD practitioners more resemble people with severe phobias, not martial artists.

From dictionary.com for Phobia
"A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation . . . "

On phobia treatment:
"[The individual is not likely to encounter the root of his phoba naturally], so behavior therapy sets up phobic treatment involving exposure to the phobic stimulus in a safe and controlled setting. Foa and Kozak (1986) call this exposure treatment, so called because the patient is exposed to the phobic stimulus as part of the therapeutic process. One simple form of exposure treatment is that of flooding, where the person is immersed in the fear reflex until the fear itself fades away."

Doesn't this sound like RBSD training?

In conclusion, it's hard to argue that training for anything other than personal enjoyment makes much sense, which runs counter to the RBSD party line. If not, it makes as much sense as trying to convince me that I need to train to protect myself against snakes, spiders, elevators, airplanes, clowns, Darth Vader, Omega, or anything else that irrationally frightens people. I don't share your irrational, daffy hysterics; don't thrust your phobias on me.
--------------

Kengou
7/18/2005 6:45pm,
Nice little article. I agree, getting murdered is not a high likelihood, but the possability exists. The training is not useless, even if it is a bit irrational and fear-based. Not to stick up for RBSDers, because I hate RBSD as much as the next Bullshidoka, but you might want to mention what is below murder on the list too. I'd be interested in seeing what is less likely than murder.

Apostol
7/18/2005 6:48pm,
The funny part is that you could argue that MMA training is more effective because it helps your cardiovascular system, and helps protect you from heart disease.

Gezere
7/18/2005 6:57pm,
The funny part is that you could argue that MMA training is more effective because it helps your cardiovascular system, and helps protect you from heart disease.


I was about to say that.

MMA guys= regular exercise, that can be pretty intense at times.

RBSD guy= Generaly out of shape and a class barely qualifies as exercise.

Perkins vs Randy Couture. :dontknow:

Fantasy Warrior
7/18/2005 7:00pm,
lol. Great article. Well thought out.
I have a confession. I'm an RBSD guy. My MMA activities are pretty casual.

I frequent some boards where the "typical" RBSD guru seems to be a paronoid twat who thinks that cashpoint machines are deathtraps and that you should be prepared to use deadly farce whenever someone assaults you, or worse still "what if they're going to rape your daughter? What then????" It's all bollox. RBSD is just SD but realistic content not those twisty wristy party tricks -at least that's how I see it.

The "defend at all costs" mentality is where the err lies. It simply isn't relevant to the vast majority of self-defence situations, it's a hypothetical whatif which applies only in the most horrific circumstances and the best form of defence is to not be there (as ever, oft preached, rarely applied). RBSD has to have a sliding scale.

The greater paradox, and this is where the prodominant British flavour of RBSD (BCA/SDF) differs from our Amnerican counterparts (Phil et al gun nuts), is that learning to defend yourself once it does get violent, requires pressure testing and alive training. So the weakest element of society, the ones who moreso need RBSD, are the ones least able/willing to do it. That is why bullshit artists selling magic beans have their market. Rant rant...

Poofist
7/18/2005 7:04pm,
To be completely fair, it's very unlikely to drown to death in a pool, yet that's no reason to not learn to swim.

FMA_Brian
7/18/2005 7:14pm,
Just to play Devil's Advocate I wonder what the figures are on likelyhood of being a victim of violent crime. That seems to be the door buzz phrase for RSBD type schools "Don't let violence happen to you!!!"

I myself realize that I'm probably not (see never) going to get in a stick on stick fight in real life. I do FMA because I love it, I do study the empty hand game and it's a hell of alot easier to keep in shape doing something you love than something you hate (ie. *having* to go to the gym.)

I have to admit it is telling how we're about 3+ times more likely to die of the Flu.

my two cents

-Brian

Gezere
7/18/2005 7:35pm,
What really kills me about some of RSBD groups is that they live in demographics were violent crime isn't an issue.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
7/18/2005 7:45pm,
To be completely fair, it's very unlikely to drown to death in a pool, yet that's no reason to not learn to swim.

To be equally fair, more people probably learn how to swim for recreation than learn how to swim out of fear of drowning.

Poofist
7/18/2005 7:47pm,
To be equally fair, more people probably learn how to swim for recreation than learn how to swim out of fear of drowning.

Good point.

Phrost
7/18/2005 7:49pm,
"One would think that by training in "street" orientated martial arts, or combatives that emphasize the self defense aspects of martial arts, to the exclusion of what they deem to be "sports" training, that these types of individuals would gain more confidence, more peace, more happiness, and become more comfortable within them as their skills at 'self-defense' grew. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the opposite seems to be true. Individuals that come to strictly "street" orientated martial arts, that were already prone to feelings of inadequacy, shame, physiological fear, and paranoia tend to have those qualities magnified by such training, rather then eased.

I wouldn't ask anyone to take my word for it with that assessment. Instead I would suggest one visit the nearest "mercenary" convention, combatives or "street" martial arts forums, or speak with these individuals in person. This sadness, anger, and immense fear is palpable when you are forced to spend anytime around these types of individuals. Try reading the posts at the "street" forums. Many tend to read like angry notes from disgruntled 13-year-old boys. There is talk of "tearing out the mo-fo's eyes", biting, and various vicious things that can be done to the attackers. The posts speak to an intense anger and fear in the writers, and sadly, the Instructors of such curriculums cater to this need by exploiting their target audiences obvious weakness, and emotional frailty. Matt Thornton (http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm)


And by Paul Sharp of Straight Blast Gym:

Quote:
You can observe the same thing in the so-called street fighting or reality based corner of the combat sport world. Scared people that translate themselves into lethal killing machines by toting around numerous knives, sticks and assorted weapons. The thing that makes these individuals really dangerous? They are still acting out of fear driven behavior. Without any knowledge of the moral and legal ramifications brought about by their actions. The truth is, they will never overcome their fear because they never confront it. Never testing their skills so as to give themselves a realistic view of their abilities. The fear compounds as they know they are untested which leads them to avoid the testing process for fear of losing and the cycle never ends.- Paul Sharp (http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm)
"

From the Pax FAQ.

Year Zero
7/18/2005 8:47pm,
RBSD guys are always talking about the need to defend from surprise attacks, but the likelyood of you remembering and pulling off a 12-step reaction is far less likely than just doing what you can with real, tested MA skills. What about the average bar figtht, where the attacker not only telegraphs his intentions to fight but often stands there for a few seconds totally open to attack?

Gezere
7/18/2005 8:57pm,
I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.

Jaguar Wong
7/18/2005 9:11pm,
I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.

THERE ARE NO RULES IN THE STREET!

The MMA/sport training teaches one to react and use actual effective techniques (bread and butter 1-2 combo) when attacked, but most people (those that I've talked to that bash MMA) feel that it would be better to "react" with lethal or "more effective" fight ending techniques. Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure. You fight how you train, so if you're training to stand there while your partner fires of a pre-determined strike so you can react with a killing blow...well I just hope those RBSD types are attacked by egotistical Billy-Jack thugs (I'm going to take this foot, and ..... )

Plus never training to fight beyond the 30 second mark (all fights end within seconds, not minutes) is doing wonders for their health, right? ;)

Kengou
7/18/2005 9:16pm,
"Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure."
Actually, I think the whole basis for RBSD is supposed to be this phrase, and they do focus on training under pressure. But, as has been pointed out, tying your arm behind your back and using stage blood and starting a fight undernieth a chair with a blindfold on and 3 guys attacking you, isn't really practical training. When are you ever going to get into that situation unless you live in prison or are in special forces or something?

Gezere
7/18/2005 9:26pm,
Plus never training to fight beyond the 30 second mark (all fights end within seconds, not minutes) is doing wonders for their health, right? ;)

Actually this varies. I have seen fights last as long at 5 minutes. There is no standard. Sport fighters want their fight to end quickly too but its alot harder to do with someone of with the same skill set and training.


Actually, I think the whole basis for RBSD is supposed to be this phrase, and they do focus on training under pressure

They SAY that but they don't do it. Under pressure for the RBSD guys is someone halfassing an attack then reacting to the techs the person throws at them. Under Pressure for the Sport fighter is dealing with a person who wants to put you down as much as you want to do the same to him.