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T. Ardee
6/21/2005 11:56am,
I'm just looking for any input You all might have regarding SmallCircleJiuJitsu..and especially Wally Jay.

I've read a lot about Him online & in print. So, any additional information would be greatly appreciated.

much obliged.

T.

daGorilla
6/21/2005 1:02pm,
I'm just looking for any input You all might have regarding SmallCircleJiuJitsu..and especially Wally Jay.

I've read a lot about Him online & in print. So, any additional information would be greatly appreciated.

much obliged.

T.

I've been to some of his seminars here in the NW. Wally Jay is very old (in his eighties -- maybe nineties now), but very spry and funny. What I've seen in his seminars consisted mainly of really, really painful wrist/joint and (owie) finger manipulations (he's well known for finger-breaking, apparently).

Anyway, it's good technique; he's very knowledgeable and pretty funny too, from what I remember.

-daGorilla

Meex
6/21/2005 2:21pm,
Wally Jay is a master's master who still goes 'on tour' promoting his art, and helping others promote theirs. If you don't believe that sh*t works, volunteer at a demonstration. His base art is DanZan Ryu JuJitsu (Henry Okazaki (http://www.usadojo.com/martial-artists-biographies/martial-artist-henry-okazaki.htm)). Small Circle JuJitsu originated from subset of techniques taught by Professor Okazaki, drawing heavily from Hawaiian Lua (http://www.solidaridadesrebeldes.kolgados.com.ar/breve.php3?id_breve=208).


`~/

Freddy
6/21/2005 5:22pm,
I guess I would say is that he has a unique form or way of doing jujitsu.

Meex
6/21/2005 6:18pm,
I guess I would say is that he has a unique form or way of doing jujitsu.
I would agree.

`~/

patfromlogan
6/22/2005 12:43am,
Wally Jay was my uncle's Sensei in Judo and Jiu Jitsu and I've met him. The only thing that I don't like is their (Leon the son and Wally) relationship with Dillman, Mr. Pressure Point.

The style has less live training (from what little I know) than BJJ. It is more like Japanese JJ. Which people like Asia have said they prefer for military use because you don't go to the ground.

T. Ardee
6/23/2005 11:59pm,
Thanks..pretty much, exactly what I thought. I think the "master's master" comment is right on.

I don't however, like the (tm) that follows any mention of SmallCircleJiujitsu. The commercialization of the MartialArts is what almost ruined them; pre-KarateKid it was totally different.

TaeBo_Master
6/24/2005 2:41am,
Right. But you can't necessarily say that Wally Jay's adding the (tm) is to blame, or even a contribution. There's a good chance that he's only done that after the bastardization as a way of protecting himself and his organization.

Liffguard
6/24/2005 8:59am,
Leon Jay teaches at the centre I work at and from what I've seen it's pretty legit. They seem to go pretty hard with resistant partners though they could do a bit more sparring.

Ronin
6/24/2005 9:36am,
I have no faith in small joint manipulation.

loki09789
6/24/2005 10:33am,
I have no faith in small joint manipulation.


I agree with that if it is an all out brawl.

For folks that have to deal with those that are not fully headsmashing but not fully retreating (LEO dealing with 'soft' resisting people, Mental institutions, School teachers trying to restrain students....) the stuff isn't bad to know.

The think I don't like about the training is when I see people that don't know how to really 'lock you up' with it and it looks like a bad dating experience: One person keeps trying to grag the other's hands or hug them while the other keeps squirming way.

Joint controls need to be delivered just as deliberately and quickly and committedly (is that a word?) as if it were a punch, kick or throw.

THe other reason I think they have validity is that there is a subtle difference in delivery of a 'control' and a 'break' is quickness.

If I am fumbling with a bad guy and get hold of a finger, toe, wrist....and have trained to twist,pull, press...that joint it is nothing to do the same motion with 'snapping motion' instead of 'pressing motion' so a 'lock' becomes a 'break'

Ronin
6/24/2005 10:40am,
I once dislocated my finger while doing some bag work ( don't ask), I poped it back in and finished the last 2 rounds.

dramaboy
6/24/2005 10:49am,
I have no faith in small joint manipulation.

There's only two instances where wrist/finger locks work:


1. Your opponent is totally unprepared and caught by surprise
(all the standing wristlocks)

or


2. You have developed your position and imobilized the limb.
(which is the basis of judo/bjj type grounwork)

IMHO Small cirle JJ bets on the first and to a point misses out on the second.

Tomas

loki09789
6/24/2005 11:05am,
I once dislocated my finger while doing some bag work ( don't ask), I poped it back in and finished the last 2 rounds.


I won't ask, but I will say this. That pause that you had would have made an opening the opponent if it had been in a real engagement.

Also, in a real situation, that hand would have been less effective as a tool holding, striking/grabbing weapon to use against your opponent.

Thirdly, no one was holding on to it for dear life wiggling and twisting it so that all those fun neurons that fire would cause enough pain to make you distracted, drain energy from a fighting will.

I am not saying you don't have the 'sand,' just that these things do have an impact overall as well as a place in the tool box of skills for some folks.

It really comes down to time on task: How much time are you spending on the different components of MA: Grappling (standing/ground), striking, blocking, mobility/footwork, tactics.....

I have a small list of locks and throws (ground and standing) that I try to focus on so that I can do them cold instead of having 1000 that I can half do.

I asked you before but I think it got lost in the discussion:

WHat type of operation are you officer of ( I read it in your bio)

daGorilla
6/24/2005 11:10am,
Wally Jay was my uncle's Sensei in Judo and Jiu Jitsu and I've met him. The only thing that I don't like is their (Leon the son and Wally) relationship with Dillman, Mr. Pressure Point.

The style has less live training (from what little I know) than BJJ. It is more like Japanese JJ. Which people like Asia have said they prefer for military use because you don't go to the ground.


I've been to 1 or 2 seminars featuring Remy Presas, Wally Jay, and Grandmaster Flashpants (Dillman).

Wally Jay's stuff seemed pretty damn good. I don't think finger breaking is the limit of his art. He's damn good at it though. I suspect he could toss just about anyone on their head with a combination of his judo/jj experience. And he doesn't dislocate fingers, he bloody well breaks them. ow. (I keep thinking of that scene with Rutger Hauer and Harrison Ford in Bladerunner....)

For the record -- Presas was quite good too. My Arnis instructor was a direct student of his. A pity he died relatively young (in his 60's) from cancer.

Dillman comes off like a football coach selling books. I'm sure some of his pressure point stuff is fine, but regardless of how legit or illegit his art may be, he seemed more interested in pimping and less interested in showing any worthwhile technique. I suspect this won't surprise anyone here.

-daGorilla

Ronin
6/24/2005 11:30am,
WHat type of operation are you officer of ( I read it in your bio)

I am Operations Manager of a steel fabrication and pressure vessel company.