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Edge
5/21/2005 2:36pm,
:adios:

DubhGhaill
5/21/2005 3:05pm,
If you learn how to box at "Al's Gym", and then you open your own place, does your gym have to be called "Al's Gym" too?

It's immoral to keep teaching it in the same order if you know it could be done a better way.

Edge
5/21/2005 3:52pm,
Hmm, yes, my question isn't so much about the name of the person who owns the club, but more about the name of the style.

I think order of progression is very important, also too many advanced techniques or too many at once is a waste in my opinion.

Sam Browning
5/21/2005 4:24pm,
The reverse argument is if say a person studies Shotokan, then starts to add lots of stuff from other martial arts, it would be deceptive to continue to call the art Shotokan. One sees a fair amount of fake marketing when people claim their art traces back to a particular person unchanged. Is it really "Ed Parker's Kempo", or "James Mitose's Kempo" if you are separated by 7 or 8 teachers from Ed or James, and the art changed somewhat from person to person. The problem comes when the new art is accompanied with all kinds of claims that aren't true. "I created this" as verses "I synthesised this".

Though I don't like everything he says in his ad, take a look at this http://www.koba-ryu.com/whatiskobaryu.asp where Peter Rodgers explains exactly where he got the system he teaches. This provides a positive example of someone explaining in a straightforward way how they synthesised their art.

CanucKyokushin
5/21/2005 4:35pm,
I think I know where you're going with thisOr is this discussion purely on people who make claims as having the same style as they were thought.

Those this have anything to do with some guys who seem to try to justify their rank by claiming to create a new style.For instance there's this guy who actually has a 3rd dan in a kempo style.But in his style he made himself an 8th Dan.



Fyi.The only difference with his style, is that it is Kempo Karate but with kung-fu
techniques.Like thats an improvement.

Edge
5/21/2005 4:36pm,
Right. Synthesis is one reason I agree is acceptable to create a new name , but I believe it is wrong to create a new name for your art if you have only studied that single art.

Edge
5/21/2005 4:39pm,
I think I know where you're going with thisOr is this discussion purely on people who make claims as having the same style as they were thought.

Those this have anything to do with some guys who seem to try to justify their rank by claiming to create a new style.For instance there's this guy who actually has a 3rd dan in a kempo style.But in his style he made himself an 8th Dan.



Fyi.The only difference with his style, is that it is Kempo Karate but with kung-fu
techniques.Like thats an improvement.

Yeah, creating a new style in order to promote yourself is definately Bullshido. However, I want this discussion to be open to any circumstances.

Lights Out
5/21/2005 4:42pm,
Though I don't like everything he says in his ad, take a look at this http://www.koba-ryu.com/whatiskobaryu.asp where Peter Rodgers explains exactly where he got the system he teaches. This provides a positive example of someone explaining in a straightforward way how they synthesised their art.

First time I hear about these style, wonder how their groundwork is. However, I like how this sounds, bolding mine:


KOBA-RYU uses a lot of kick boxing techniques and is set apart from other systems that don not train
in full contact fighting. This is beneficial to the KOBA-RYU student because that student will experience what it is like to strike another person and to be struck by another person. This experience is obtained in a Do Jo where the training can be stopped to avoid or minimize injury. A person should not experience these
actions for the first time in a crisis situation where the fight cannot be stopped

Sam Browning
5/21/2005 4:50pm,
Yes, notice I'm not bad mouthing the guy ;)

CanucKyokushin
5/21/2005 4:54pm,
Yeah, creating a new style in order to promote yourself is definately Bullshido. However, I want this discussion to be open to any circumstances.
Oh Good! I thought this was about bad Senei's. If you want an example of an Instructor who may be making claims heres one. May I introduce to you Shihan Don Rogrigues.In the style he's created explains that his has Judo, Jujtisu, Kung-fu and of course Kempo-Karate.

http://www.donrodrigueskarateacademy.com/Our%20Style.htm


Although. I got to ASK how anyone found the time to be ranked high enough to be able to understand every minute "BUNKAI" of every one of theses styles. Why I would have to say a person would need at least 4th Dan's in each one for you to be able to claim your knowledge of these arts. Also, to be able to back up your claims.

May I also mention that this fat looser is the head coach of Team Paul Mitchell of the Sport-Karate circuit in the US.

Edge
5/21/2005 5:00pm,
Good one CKK,


A 50 year old student may not be able to do what a 6 year old student can do; however, he or she can and will still learn and reach the level of Black Belt. Also, we work with many students with physical limitations; therefore, the style is modified so that the student can still reach their goal of Black Belt.

Yeah, lets create our own style so we can justify giving black belts to 6 year olds, 50 year olds and people with physical limitations. In other words we can fucking water our **** down as much as possible and nobody can tell us what to do or where to draw the line!

CanucKyokushin
5/21/2005 5:11pm,
Thanks alot.I've actually been wanting to create a tread about these guys in the Sport-karate world.Just go check for yourselfs people.You will find many who do the same as Don "fatso" Rodrigues.He's not unique.It's the only world where you will find 20 years old with 3 rd or 4th Dan's.Usually ,because there the son's and daughters of self-proclaimed karate Master's.

Lights Out
5/21/2005 9:39pm,
Yeah, lets create our own style so we can justify giving black belts to 6 year olds, 50 year olds and people with physical limitations. In other words we can fucking water our **** down as much as possible and nobody can tell us what to do or where to draw the line!

This is a very superficial analysis. Ive heard of one guy in Brazil who competes at regular BJJ tournaments and is quite succesful. He lacks one arm. I have no further information, so I cant provide a link. Ive heard that story from the former BJJ instructor in my gym while I and a kickboxing mate were talking to him about this friend my mate has who had a physicall disability which I cannot remmeber, but let him almost in a wheelchair. One of his legas was totally useless, and his muscles were weak, he needed lots of rehabilitation. My mate was trying to convince him to join a sport to gain strenght and self-confidence, and thought that BJJ may suit him. Teh BJJ instructor strongly encouraged him to take one day his friend and give it a try.

I think most styles can adapt themselves to individuals. Heck, Im going to say that the individual should adapt the style to his own characteristics. People with physicall disbilities need, perhaps, to do so more than people without them.

Still, I get your point and where you want to go.

pauli
5/21/2005 11:06pm,
Yeah, lets create our own style so we can justify giving black belts to 6 year olds, 50 year olds and people with physical limitations. In other words we can fucking water our **** down as much as possible and nobody can tell us what to do or where to draw the line!

the counter argument would be that an instructor teaching his own style can tailor the goals of training to each individual student. a young healthy male might end up with the training he would expect before getting his blackbelt, the 6 year old might get what suits him, the 50 year old gets what a 50 year old can handle, the handicapped students get what challenges them suitably, etc.

i ain't sayin it's happening, mind you. just that it bears consideration. it's a matter of what importance and meaning you assign to a black belt.

JohnnyCache
5/22/2005 12:47am,
If you learn how to box at "Al's Gym", and then you open your own place, does your gym have to be called "Al's Gym" too?

It's immoral to keep teaching it in the same order if you know it could be done a better way.

No, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to maybe have a picture of Al around someplace, and tell people you learned from Al. It'd be kind of shitty to take what all taught you, and claim it for your own.

Edge
5/22/2005 10:14am,
And those are great points guys. Any good instructor should be able to tailor towards the needs of the individual. However, Oki-ryu is just too easy to pick on: I.e.

its OKI if you are 6: you can still have a blackbelt
its OKI if you are 50: so can you
its OKI if you are handicapped: here try one one...

anyways, joking aside: just because the instructor tailors the needs to his students, does that mean he should make up a whole new name for his style?

How much synthesis is really going on when ppl claim to have black belts in x number of styles?

Why are there a thousand Karate styles out there, 5 kabillion TKD, 6 megatrillion kung fu schools and only a few of variations on Kickboxing (muay thai, american, french)?

What I'm getting at is that instructors are making things too complicated, by making up a new name for their style for marketing purposes. They are trying to make ppl think that they have somehow created some new way of kicking ass when, guess what? its all been fucking done before. I have a hard time believing that they have somehow conceived of even a new concept, principle, technique, motto, credo, philosophy or anything that is remotely close to original.

There I'm done, I feel better now.