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ARH
5/04/2005 9:34am,
I have deliberately stayed away from the Phil threads that come up here since I metophorically walked off PB when it became pbvious the forum would not rise above farcial levels. Despite that, I am genuinely supprised nobody has picked up on this! :laughing1

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1794

The only word that comes to mind is OUCH! :eusa_clap

This thread alone is worth the effort of registering, even if it is just to hear his former Wing Chun instructor say this:


Phil....... ok it's settled then. You are indeed a writer and this book is about the things you "think" work for you. Bravo!.... I get it now.


I'm putting this to rest. Good luck in everything you do.

poidog
5/04/2005 10:14am,
Interesting. Infighting at Pax Baculum. Between Phil and the ever deadly (in his own humble opinion) leehoichuen. Who could've seen this coming? :rolleyes:

Peter H.
5/04/2005 10:23am,
I'm banned from Pax, and cannot be bothered to create a new account, can someone please reprint text of the thread, or at least the amusing bits.

ARH
5/04/2005 10:31am,
The jist of it is Phil has just created his own fighting system called shorthand empty hand, and pretty much everyone on the forum, most notably his former instructor are either implying or blatently stating that he has no place offering anyone else advise on how to fight.

It is quite funny, in a sad kind of way. Well worth the time it takes to register.

WingChun Lawyer
5/04/2005 10:37am,
ARH, I tried to register again, and I received an e-mail stating that the activation of my account depends on an act by the administrator. Meaning, it won´t happen.

So please, copy here the more juicy parts, before Phil deletes it.

Lampa
5/04/2005 10:40am,
It's called Short Hand Empty Hand because his body fat level has expanded to the point where he has T-Rex arms.

poidog
5/04/2005 11:05am,
Here's the gist of it.

Shorthand Empty Hand™ is the system of "expedient stylized fighting" codified by me, based on the various arts I have studied and researched and biased heavily towards what I A) prefer; and B) can do. As such, Shorthand Empty Hand™ is ideal for the average citizen -- the everyman, the anywoman, the Joe Sixpack and the John Doe.

This is not me electing myself Soke of my own style, Shihan of my own Dojo, Sifu of my own Kwoon, Pokemon of my own Bamboo Steamer, or Grand Nagus of my own Imperial Emporium. This is a simple, basic body of principles and techniques shared by various styles and relatively unremarkable save for presentation. My ability to communicate is what I bring to the table and what makes Shorthand Empty Hand™ different from the various other systems in which you might choose to invest your time, energy, and money.



Phil..... I posted this on my forum and only saw it fair to let you know it was about you. I originally wanted to post this on your forum.... actually.... I DID!!! but the forum crashed and all the data I typed was lost. So here is what I wanted to say. Take it or leave it.

_______________________________________________
Topic: I created my own superior Martial Art!!!!

HA HA!!! Fooled ya!!!!

but seriously.... why is it I see so many poeple out there "creating" their own martial art systems? It's absolutely rediculous!

Phil..... a good friend of mine created something he calls Short Hand Empty Hand. Here's a quote I lifted from his forum:


Shorthand Empty Hand™™ is the system of "expedient stylized fighting" codified by me, based on the various arts I have studied and researched and biased heavily towards what I A) prefer; and B) can do. As such, Shorthand Empty Hand™™ is ideal for the average citizen -- the everyman, the anywoman, the Joe Sixpack and the John Doe.

This is not me electing myself Soke of my own style, Shihan of my own Dojo, Sifu of my own Kwoon, Pokemon of my own Bamboo Steamer, or Grand Nagus of my own Imperial Emporium. This is a simple, basic body of principles and techniques shared by various styles and relatively unremarkable save for presentation. My ability to communicate is what I bring to the table and what makes Shorthand Empty Hand™™ different from the various other systems in which you might choose to invest your time, energy, and money.



I addressed Phil about this and to be honest I was still not satisfied with any of the answers i was being given. Before we could really get into it however his forum crashed and all the data (discussions) were lost. So I decided to address it here.

I taught music for 15 years (1985 to 2000) and was a performing artist for about 26 years (1979 to 2005). I use music here as a parallel because it is my firm belief that any skilful endeavor requires the same ingredients to achieve the final result.

When I was teaching guitar I had all kinds of students. Those that took it up because they saw a video on MTV and wanted to be over night rock stars, those who just loved music so much they wanted to make their own and those who were both.

Often the rockstar wannabe's never practiced and they always wanted the short cut. If they came to me with a complex song they wanted to play they were happy with learning a stripped down simple version of that song. So when they played the song it "kinda" sounded like the original but was deffinately missing the rich textures that defined the tune. Also, I would tell my students that practicing an hour a day MINIMUM was required if they wanted to be good. When asked how much they practiced this week I would get answers like "I played an hour." I'd say "Everyday?" they'd respond "No.... I played an hour .....this week." These kids would usually get frustrated and not last long because their lack in comittment to really learning the guitar was not strong enough therefore they adopted a "I don't need guitar lessons" mentality. 99 times out of 100 these kids either quit playing or continued playing but with very poor skills making them not very hireable in the music market.

The music Lovers were different. They wanted to understand the inner workings of how music was created and played. They wanted to take the time to develop good practicing habits and usually followed instruction to the letter. These students would develop VERY fast. If i said practice an hour a day.... they would practice 2 to 4 hours. They would also research on their own. Picking up books on theory and technique. These students would stay with me until I couldn't teach them anything new and would have to send them some place else. These students usually ended up as proffessional performing artists, session players, teachers and more.

Can you see how this relates to martial arts training? If you don't train FOR REAL you will never EVER be any good. Now like Sigung said "Some want their Kung Fu to be so-so... and that's ok..... I respect them for at least training a little. But I don't have to respect them as martial artists." No truer words have ever been spoken.

Which leads me to my original gripe..... why would some "create" a martial system based on UNPROVEN TECHNIQUES AND INEXPERIENCE???!!!

Norm put it quite simply. How could you feel good about yourself teaching people tecniques YOU yourself can't make work in reality? Aren't you putting their lives at risk? Wouldn't it be better if these people trained with instructors who at least HAVE real life experience and training?

Well I can go on but I think you get the idea. Your thoughts?




Phil..... I posted this on my forum and only saw it fair to let you know it was about you.


Looking through the threads on your forum -- maybe I'm a little touchy on the topic, I don't know -- it kind of looks like you've been taking veiled shots at me at your forum since it opened; I'm not sure why I would read this latest thread and think, "I wonder who he's talking about?"



I created my own superior Martial Art!!!!


Point of order; I'm not sure when I called it "superior" to anything.



I addressed Phil about this and to be honest I was still not satisfied with any of the answers i was being given. Before we could really get into it however his forum crashed and all the data (discussions) were lost. So I decided to address it here.


I answered your questions and then reposted those answers here in this forum, though. I am sorry if they did not satisfy you; I'm not sure what it is you want to hear, but I can only answer you honestly. You should know me well enough to know I would simply tell you what I think.



Which leads me to my original gripe..... why would some "create" a martial system based on UNPROVEN TECHNIQUES AND INEXPERIENCE???!!!


The system is an extremely basic one that employs basic, common techniques that I've been taught by various teachers or which I've researched and found simple and intuitive. Is a palm strike an unproven technique? Is a vertical punch an unproven technique? Is an elbow an unproven technique? As I've gone to great pains to point out, there's nothing about the system that is particularly earth-shattering or groundbreaking.



Norm put it quite simply. How could you feel good about yourself teaching people tecniques YOU yourself can't make work in reality?


I've "felt good about myself" since beginning publishing of The Martialist™ because I've never tried to be anything that I'm not. I've never presented myself as anything other than an average guy with an above-average ability to communicate and the desire to share what I've managed to learn -- while learning from others.



Aren't you putting their lives at risk? Wouldn't it be better if these people trained with instructors who at least HAVE real life experience and training?


Who is stopping them? As I answered you earlier, anyone who buys a softcover book and thinks it has taught them to fight is begging to be naturally selected. I don't see why the program I'm promoting cannot coexist with others' training in other systems. It does with me.



I would never doubt Phil's integrety in that HE is confident in what he teaches, but if I was a student I would want to ask what experience he has personally had with using what he teaches. Considering what our goal is I think this is a fair question.


And I would come right back by answering you with the fact that I'm a paunchy white guy with a logical mind, bad eyesight, and a straightforward approach to self-defense that is the result of my study of the topic. That's not terribly impressive -- and I don't care to impress anyone. If the material I promote resonates with some people, great -- it does so on its own merits and not on the basis of any credentials I don't have.



I read the basics of Phil's system as he posted it and it is all solid simple stuff, it lacks depth but if you are teaching someone in a couple hours, simple solid stuff is what you want.


Precisely!



It does have pictures of him in a silly kung-fu outfit, but I have pictures of me in a silly Judo uniform so I guess we are even


Now, come on -- I could hardly abandon the marketing strategy that has served me so well up to now, could I? My marketing is built on silly pictures of me; it's a nod to the fact that I don't take myself seriously (and no one else should take me too seriously, either).



Where the difficulty for me comes is the idea that these ideas form a system. What seperates good technique from bad technique is the way it is taught, I prefer to oearn from someone who teaches from both a personal experience with the techniques as well as a solid theoretical understanding.


That's why I wrote a book tying them together. They do form a system -- my personal system. I sat down and said, "If someone asked me to describe my fighting system, how would I do so in about a hundred pages?" If others appreciate it, great. If not, fine by me; it makes no difference to me and I don't hold it against anyone.



Although Soke Elmore is no Bruce Lee, I don't remember Lee getting very far in any art before he founded his own codifed style of fighting.


I am no Bruce Lee. I am no Tommy Lee with a bad hangover. I am just me. I didn't do this out of some Jack Savage-like desire to be venerated as a martial arts demigod. This isn't about how tough or cool I think I am, or how tough or cool I want you to think I am.



I like the comparison with music and martial arts. Jimmy Hendrix couldn't read music. I doubt he did well in formalized educational settings.


I'm not talented musically. I'm not particularly gifted. I'm just an ordinary guy with something to share with other ordinary people. It's a starting point, not a destination.



I'm sure glad that the Founding Fathers didn't wait around for the official stamp of approval prior to engaging in their grand democratic experiment.


This has always been my motivation. I do what I want because I wish to do it and for no other reason.



But I think you guys are misreading this whole thing. I am seeing a simplified fighting system / self defense system not the creation of a martial art.


We could probably argue what the distinction between the two is. I consider this a simplified self-defense system for average people -- a starting point for self-defense, not the end-all and be-all and not the only book you'll ever need. It's a statement of opinion -- my opinion, on the topic of self-defense.



If you want people to take Shorthand Empty Hand™™ seriously, could please you clearly, in one place, like this thread, list your qualifications for creating such a system. Achievements in various arts plus records from competitions would be appreciated


Sorry, haven't got any. I don't care if anyone takes it seriously; if they do, it will be on the merits of the system, and not any claims to glory, honor, or experience I might try and fail to make. The contents of the first book and any follow-up work I do will have to stand for what they are -- no more, no less.



THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!!! Any one who says otherwise is seriously kidding themselves. Don't argue with me..... argue with FACT! Ask yourself..... why are you good at what you do and what makes you better?


I am a good writer. That is a fact; I don't think it's particularly arrogant to say it in so many words. I am not a particularly talented martial artist. I am, however, a good critical thinker with an analytical mind who has been studying self-defense for fifteen years. That's not enough time to make me as good as you, or even as good as most of your students, Anthony, but it does make me good enough to codify a logical, basic system and communicate it to others -- particularly when those others are my fellow average citizens. That's all I'm looking to do.

I am not a fighter. That's not how I define myself. That's not the audience to which this book is marketed.



Fubar..... simplified fighting system based on what EXPERIENCE? Get my meaning? Don't forget guys... I know Phil personally and have touched hands with him. None of you have.


The overwhelming majority of objections to my writing of this book all come back to some variation on this theme. The person objecting, who considers himself (or simply is) better than me, cannot understand the temerity with which I would express my opinion on the subject -- as if I am implying or asserting that I am his equal (or his superior). I am not -- and I have made no such claims.

I don't have to be Bruce Lee, Anthony's equal, or anyone other than me to codify and promote this system. If Anthony was to stop by and challenge me to a fight today, he'd win -- if I fought him. That's not the point of a book like this. This isn't a guide for Ultimate Warriors, it isn't a handbook on dueling, and it isn't my declaration of what an incredible fighter I think I am. It's nothing of the kind.

I also won't make up anything in presenting the system; I won't lie to anybody and I won't present myself as anything I cannot or will not be. That means if you buy this book you're listening to the opinion of a fat, near-sighted, less-than-average and large-bodied mammal who has very specific opinions on self-defense and who has a better than average mind when it comes to processing and communicating the relevant concepts.



Your first imitator???

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=7503


Many people live in my shadow. I'm a pretty wide.



I'll tell you what , though : I keep mentioning my 20 years , What I haven't really mentioned is the past two plus years of sitting on my butt. To some extent Phil and all his sites participants , including you, have motivated me to start training again. Hit the weights yesterday, Shooting range last Sunday , visiting a multi style full contact gym tomorrow after work.


This, too, is my aim as publisher of The Martialist™.



I don't think Phil is being flamed, only questioned.


Seems fair to me. That's why I created this forum.



There is no need to answer questions about ring records etc.


That's easy to answer -- haven't got any.



But tell us about actual experiences against non-cooperative people, experiences that takes place outside the training hall. It doesn't have to be reduced to telling war stories, but I would like to hear about actual experiences using the techniques he is suggesting other do.


Nope, won't do it. No good comes of it. You can choose to look at the material and decide if it resonates with you, or you can choose not to; I created this for my own reasons and I'm not looking for affirmation.



Well, actually, I'd be interested in questions about "ring records, etc." If Phil's never fought in a boxing match, kick boxing match, wrestling match, judo match, or jiu jitsu match, or mma competition, that's something worth knowing.


Haven't got any. If sportfighting is important to you, you don't want my book.



If Phil has the experience and skill necessary to be an instructor in an art not known for competition, such as, say, wing chun, that would be useful information. If he hasn't, that's important too.


Nope. Not qualified to teach anyone a traditional art.



Same goes for law enforcement experience, and military training.


Nope. Got two traffic tickets in one stop once. That's about it.



So, Phil, as founder and instructor in Shorthand Empty Hand™™ tm, what are your qualifications to teach anyone how to fight?


An analytical mind, a grasp of logic and reason, and an above-average ability to communicate -- coupled with my study of the topic and any conclusions I've drawn over my relatively brief life -- are all I've got. Take 'em or leave 'em; makes no difference to me.



If you think you should be taken seriously, what is your experience and skill in regards to:


I don't think I should be taken seriously. I don't think anything about it. I do what I wish to do for my own reasons, because it pleases me -- and those with whom my work resonates will appreciate it along the way. I don't need anyone else's approval.



a combat sporting record


Nope.



ranks and achievements in other martial arts


Few, far between, and unimpressive.



law enforcement


I was a Pinkertons guard for a few weekends. I guarded little trains at the fairgrounds during the model train expo. There were no ninja.



military rank or training


I had a really large collection of GI Joe figures as a child.



Or perhaps there is some informal experience that potentially makes you qualified, such as extensive bouncing at rough bars?


Nope. I like fruity wuss drinks anyway.



It's not my place to tell you to do anything, Phil, especially not on your own forum.


No, it isn't.



But if you think you should be taken seriously as a teacher of something,


I don't. I am unconcerned about it.



as opposed to just a martial arts enthusiast


I think that is probably an apt description.



you should certainly be willing to put this sort of information together in one place for everyone to read.


That's the purpose of this forum.

Also, my completely unimpressive martial biography is contained in the Shorthand Empty Hand™ book. I am anxiously awaiting my proof from the publisher now.




I am, however, a good critical thinker with an analytical mind who has been studying self-defense for fifteen years. That's not enough time to make me as good as you, or even as good as most of your students, Anthony, but it does make me good enough to codify a logical, basic system and communicate it to others -- particularly when those others are my fellow average citizens. That's all I'm looking to do.



Phil.... I have taught musicians that have been playing guitar longer then I have been a live.... yet they came to me why? Years do not mean SKILL. 15 years of martial arts? Who cares? I mean honestly..... you are an intelligent guy so you should know that time spent doesn't always mean quality time. Like my music teacher in high School always said (Picture her sounding just like Roz from the movie Monsters Inc) "If you practice 5 years of CRAP you'll sound like CRAAAAP!!!" She was soooooo right

Yes.... I have made MANY references to your type of behavior on my forum. And most of it was definately inspired by you. But not entirely directed at you but to people in general. If you want to take it as ALL pointing at you then so be it. Look into yourself.

Phil.... as far as I am oncerned you have answered everything exactly as I knew you would. You go on doing things "your way".... I'm cool with that. Let's just hope that this way you travel doesn't get you killed. Seriously..... I do indeed care for you even though my words here would make you think otherwise. To quote... well.... myself...... "If I didn't say anything it means I don't care about you."

I'm seriously done with this and will buy your book for review. Thanks and God Bless




Phil.... I have taught musicians that have been playing guitar longer then I have been a live.... yet they came to me why? Years do not mean SKILL. 15 years of martial arts? Who cares? I mean honestly..... you are an intelligent guy so you should know that time spent doesn't always mean quality time.


I don't think I was trying to give you the impression that I placed a great deal of significance on the time itself; I am quite sure the point of what I posted was that reason and logic applied to the subject matter considered over time, combined with a good ability to communicate, constitute what I consider my qualifications for writing the book.



Yes.... I have made MANY references to your type of behavior on my forum. And most of it was definately inspired by you. But not entirely directed at you but to people in general. If you want to take it as ALL pointing at you then so be it. Look into yourself.


It's certainly your right to take shots at me if you feel it's necessary; I don't begrudge you that. I'm a little disappointed, and I was a little disappointed when I first saw it, but I can't say it comes as a surprise.



Phil.... as far as I am oncerned you have answered everything exactly as I knew you would.


What way is that? Honestly? Directly? Refusing to pretend to be anyone I'm not? Flatly stating the facts without shrinking away from them? You asked me questions and I answered them as objectively and as baldly as I could; it seems like you're implying there's something wrong with that. What should I have said? What answer would you hope for?

All I can do, all I have ever done, is pursue my goals, my way, on my terms. I don't do what I do for anyone's approval. I don't require anyone's affirmation. I don't seek anyone's opinion, though I don't mind hearing them. Only I can live my life, just as only you can live yours -- and that's how it's got to be.




I'm a little disappointed, and I was a little disappointed when I first saw it, but I can't say it comes as a surprise.



disapointed is a good word phil. Because that is what I am with you in regards to martial arts/sciences. You spoke a very big game when you met me but didn't demonstrate to me anything other then a drive to find things to write about.

You are right, you are doing things on your terms and that's cool. Good luck! I don't agree with it and as a friend... yes... a friend.... I'm expressing my concern and disagreement. If you choose never to speak with me again that is fine. But like drunk men always say "I love ya MAN!!!!" You know where to find me if you ever want to talk. I'll always be here for you.

Later gator.



[QUOTE]
disapointed is a good word phil. Because that is what I am with you in regards to martial arts/sciences. You spoke a very big game when you met me but didn't demonstrate to me anything other then a drive to find things to write about.


I have never "spoken a big game." I have never presented myself as anything other than who I am -- and when I left your school, that is precisely what I told you.



Phil....... ok it's settled then. You are indeed a writer and this book is about the things you "think" work for you. Bravo!.... I get it now.


I'm putting this to rest. Good luck in everything you do.



I have never presented it as anything else.

If you wish to persist in telling me that you're my friend, you might consider toning down your hostility. I have never treated you with anything but respect.

I've gotta get a job. And a life, apparently.

katana
5/04/2005 11:22am,
He's got a website up:

http://www.shorthandemptyhand.com/

Phil loves this free publicity stuff. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

cyrijl
5/04/2005 11:34am,
i think it is funny that on his forums phil acts all tough and bad, but when confronted with/by someone he knows he is all wimpy and self-deprecating....

lifetime
5/04/2005 11:50am,
Because the ability to operate a keyboard is really more important than the ability to pull off the moves you claim to be teaching. Awesome logic.

WingChun Lawyer
5/04/2005 11:51am,
Thanks a lot poidog. It was worth a laugh. I knew Phil would not be content until he promoted himself to something, and apparently, even his Wing Chun sifu got fed up with him - enough to demand proof of performance in SPORT COMPETITIONS!!!

Oh, the irony.

One more thing. One must love how Phil brings to the table nothing but his average joe experience, to teach average joes, ignoring the fact that average joes do not elect one of them to teach the others a skill all of them ignore...they search for someone who is NOT an average joe on that area of human achievement to teach them that.

That is wrong on so many levels I´ll stop now.

Lampa
5/04/2005 11:59am,
Upon reading the thread I've got to say it's just become sad.

I mean, here's Phil's logic:

I have no experience. The system will have to be judged on its own merits and NOT my authority.

Okay, Phil. Very scientific reasoning there. Nothing wrong until you think about how the intended audience. In order to judge a system based on its merits one must have an intricate understanding of how posture and technique delivery works in a realistic setting. The book is marketed towards BEGINNERS! If it's to be judged by its own merit then how come it is designed so those who can judge its merit are the least likely to read it?

katana
5/04/2005 12:08pm,
This was a long time coming really. Phil has all the characteristics to make a fine RBSD instructor:

1) No experience
2) No williingness to prove what they teach works
3) A preference for theory over empirical evidence
4) Poor conditioning
5) Overconfidence
6) Applies sweeping generalities to sidestep questions
7) Fear of black people

I predict Phil will see wild success in his new career. Perhaps I can go to one of his seminars one day.

poidog
5/04/2005 12:20pm,
One more thing. One must love how Phil brings to the table nothing but his average joe experience, to teach average joes, ignoring the fact that average joes do not elect one of them to teach the others a skill all of them ignore...they search for someone who is NOT an average joe on that area of human achievement to teach them that.Distillation of the MOST crucial point. Brilliant as always, WCL. My new sig. Mahalo.

WingChun Lawyer
5/04/2005 12:23pm,
Distillation of the MOST crucial point. Brilliant as always, WCL. My new sig. Mahalo.

I simply cannot rid myself of this "logic" thing I was born with...

And thanks!

MALibrarian
5/04/2005 12:34pm,
It seems to me that Mr. Elmore's basic strategy in defending his creation is that he makes no claims to actually teach anything concrete or useful, so therefore he is not legally culpable if it turns out to be crap. His final defense is "let the buyer beware."

So LEGALLY there is nothing wrong with what he's doing. That being said, it's morally repugnant and shows a profound lack of resepect for those who do publish good work in the same market he is going after, not to mention any persons engaged in teaching self defense.