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FormLess
4/23/2005 4:11pm,
I hear alot of talk about this and since I am in the Marines I feel I should clear up some points. First of all, being a Marine does not mean you are automatically a bad ass fighter. I know a good majority of Marines that couldn't fight thier way out of a wet paper bag. Most of these marines also have practiced thier MC MAP or "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" which consists of belts going from tan, grey, green brown and different degrees of black. It's not much different from a Krav Maga class or system in which it basically jumps on the band wagon teaching MMAgrappling techniques, some judo throws and a basic boxing stance and a bunch of wrist locks and escapes from holds. It's not so much a matter of the techniques being bad, but there is not much strategy involved and most of the instructors don't know what they are talking about. Each belt takes about a week or so to get after a fairly difficult training regimine in each. Sometimes it takes up to 2 weeks per belt. I have heard that the Black belt course, however is incredibly difficult. You might be able to become a fairly good grappler if you practiced the techniques every day, but not much better than an average joe who watches a few UFC's and thinks he knows everything about grappling and probably doesn't even know the term Jujutsu. There are basic boxing punches as far as Jabs crosses and hooks along with goofy side hammer strikes and other things. The kicks are mostly low and no kicking mechanics are taught. Same goes for the punching. There are rifle techniques whch are no different from what you would learn in basic line training and some knife fighting techques which I can't comment on since I know nothing about knife fighting. By the way, neither do most marines. There really isn't a big emphasis on Marines larning how to fight unarmed. It's not a big priority since the enemy has guns and artillery. The system is pretty basic and follows in the fallacy or teaching students the nitty-gritty instead of focusing on basics and form as well as free sparring. I think that the MCMAP program was simply the result of the Commandant trying to stay with the trends and impress everyone. I got my tan belt about 3 years ago and never went to go for the other belts. I think I can get much better instruction from a muay thai or BJJ instructor.

CanucKyokushin
4/23/2005 5:32pm,
I have always heard of this term. Used by the military to describe everything from tactics to buying technology and all the way down to washing the latrines.

So by your own admission the basic defence that are thought to soldiers are to watered-own even to be described a Ma.Even though the marines take much from BJJ.

I wonder how a Marine black belt would stand up to a say an experienced special forces from any nation on earth who has been studying for yeas on how to destroy a human being.

What are your thoughts on a possible Marine BB vs. BJJ or judo in say a friendly tournament?

FormLess
4/23/2005 6:13pm,
I think that the marine would get destroyed by a Bjj black belt in all honesty. Even by a blue or white belt if that person had any considerable skill. Like I said, it is a general public misconception that marines are all badass fighters. Technically, you could get your black belt in MCMAP in a few months. That's not enough time to learn the intracacies of BJJ or judo or any fighting art. Plus the technique reprotoire would be alot less and less ingrained. The marine might have an advantage as far as conditioning, but that is easily overcome by experience and technique plus the Bjj guy could easily be as in just as good condition. The whole question of a marine VS some other special forces unit from the world is an unimportant question as the marine corps and special forces are not a martial art. It would depend on the person at that point.

VikingPower
4/23/2005 6:37pm,
We already pretty much killed this subject: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19590&page=1&pp=15

Where you stationed at btw? Lots of Jarheads on here actually :D

FormLess
4/23/2005 7:03pm,
I'm actually a weekend warrior but have been to Iraq twice so don't make fun. My unit is an MP unit in Lexington.

VikingPower
4/23/2005 7:03pm,
I'm actually a weekend warrior but have been to Iraq twice so don't make fun. My unit is an MP unit in Lexington.

Nah, some of my good buddies are in an MP unit from Pittsburgh. As long as you serve, you're good in my book :thumbsup: I was over there only for the initial invasion, it's a lot rougher now IMO.

FormLess
4/23/2005 7:21pm,
I know some Pittsburg guys too. Do you know anyone named Fulton, Poole, or Rieher?

FormLess
4/23/2005 7:25pm,
I have always heard of this term. Used by the military to describe everything from tactics to buying technology and all the way down to washing the latrines.

So by your own admission the basic defence that are thought to soldiers are to watered-own even to be described a Ma.Even though the marines take much from BJJ.

I wonder how a Marine black belt would stand up to a say an experienced special forces from any nation on earth who has been studying for yeas on how to destroy a human being.

What are your thoughts on a possible Marine BB vs. BJJ or judo in say a friendly tournament?


I would rename it KICS for keep it cheap shitty. The marine corps have to be some of the cheapest bastards around.

VikingPower
4/23/2005 7:27pm,
I know some Pittsburg guys too. Do you know anyone named Fulton, Poole, or Rieher?

Nah, none of them ring a bell. You know Maniello, Petosky, or Sackett?

VikingPower
4/23/2005 7:28pm,
I would rename it KICS for keep it cheap shitty. The marine corps have to be some of the cheapest bastards around.

We get like, what, $0.06 per every dollar given to the U.S. budget so it's not like it's our fault :)

FormLess
4/23/2005 7:32pm,
Nah, none of them ring a bell. You know Maniello, Petosky, or Sackett?
No, they weren't anywhere near us on our last deployment, so I only know the three i mentioned from MP school

alex
4/23/2005 7:32pm,
i dont think anyone here was under the misconception that the marines were deadly H2H fighters.

a mate of mine in the army keeps ranting about this knife defense he learnt, apparently 90% of knife attacks involve someone coming at you doing those downward zombie stabs, like in that jim carrey knife defense vid. so NZ is just as whack in that regard as america (the defense sucks **** too)

CanucKyokushin
4/23/2005 7:33pm,
A few year ago I met a guy who claimed he was an ex-SAS soldier.He told me some stuff that seemed to make sense, like his deployments to Bosnia and Kosovo.So I was never sure with him and all of his stories.

Well anyway , he claimed that the SAS were thought a self-defence system that worked better then MA's.He claimed that all MA's systems we're "rubbish".

Is there not any cross training or are there not experienced martial artist brought in to teach more then just basic's.Or those the Marine corps fraun upon that.

VikingPower
4/23/2005 7:39pm,
A few year ago I met a guy who claimed he was an ex-SAS soldier.He told me some stuff that seemed to make sense, like his deployments to Bosnia and Kosovo.So I was never sure with him and all of his stories.

Well anyway , he claimed that the SAS were thought a self-defence system that worked better then MA's.He claimed that all MA's systems we're "rubbish".

Is there not any cross training or are there not experienced martial artist brought in to teach more then just basic's.Or those the Marine corps fraun upon that.

There's plenty of MAs involved in the Marine Corps. They have a boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and judo team and there's often MAs taught on-base. There was a Colonel who started teaching Kodokan judo a few months before my unit got activated to go to Iraq. We met twice a week at the Del Mar Gym in Pendleton and the only requirements were to buy a gi and leave your ego at the door, didn't cost a dime. From what I remember, there was also jujitsu, BJJ, kyokushin, and goju-ryu offered near there as well.

Okinawa has Fight Club Heat, which is kickboxing and MMA competitions, not to mention they have the boxing and wrestling team, an informal karate team (lots and lots of karate there obviously), Nihon-Ryu Jujutsu, and some weird Ninjitsu style that used to train in the wrestling room. They did all weapons from the few times I saw them there.

So while they don't call in people to train large groups of people, there's plenty of opportunities for the individual.

FormLess
4/23/2005 7:40pm,
I could care less if the Marine Corps had a good MA system. I'm simply stating that it's all hyped up and that some people that get thier belts think that they're badasses when they're not. The marines should simply teach how to fight with weapons in all kinds of environments for war purposes and let people train unarmed martial arts on thier own. It works alot better. The whole belt system thing is gay too.

Rashomon
4/23/2005 9:36pm,
They may not be better than the average Joe in fighting technique. Where they probably have the edge, though, is in conditioning and mental toughness. Both of those traits go a long way, especially when the fighters are evenly-matched in fighting skill.