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View Full Version : San Shou / San Da etc clips from Marvin Perry



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Blad3
3/06/2003 11:40pm,
http://marvinperry.org/fightclips-frame.htm

Some nice san shou, Muay Thai and kickboxing clips there - even a nice back/side kick (though it looks more like a spinning back kick) to the face and round house KO in one of the clips.

Some are advertised as KF (somtimes) but are kickboxing/Muaythai and wrestling/Judo (San Shou).....

comments?

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 9:18am,
I find it interesting how you continuously try to
insinuate that if someone is kneeing, throwing a round house(whether it be high or low) grappling or throwing, then the technique used could have not possibly come from a martial art of Sino origen.

What experience do you have with Chinese martial arts besides that Wing Chun class you recently started attending because I wonder if you really understand how varied the techniques can range in a particular method of a Chinese martial art, let alone how many completely different Chinese fighting arts there are in existence?

jkd_fighter
3/07/2003 10:20am,
I agree with mikey, it seems that if it is not american or brazillian it is crappy. San shou is on aof the best stand up art, it covers kicking, punching, and stand up grappling. Iam so tired of people saying

"it is basicaly kickboxing and wrestling" "rip off of muay thai" "it is not chinese"

Well let me tell you somthing, ALL of those techniques (sans boxing skils) can be found in chinese martial arts.

Thai_Kick
3/07/2003 2:27pm,
To be honest, San Shou is the Chinese Governments way to compete or compare to Muay Thai, and it still fails!

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 2:58pm,
" To be honest, San Shou is the Chinese Governments way to compete or compare to Muay Thai, and it still fails!"

Perhaps if you had checked your facts before posting that drivel I would engage you on it...but since you did'nt....back to my inquiry...

KC Elbows
3/07/2003 2:58pm,
It's not judo, it's generally schuiao Jiao(sp), which is a chinese art predominantly made up of throws, and thus, it's gonna have a lot of similarities to judo, another art made up of throws.

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 3:09pm,
"It's not judo, it's generally schuiao Jiao(sp), which is a chinese art predominantly made up of throws, and thus, it's gonna have a lot of similarities to judo, another art made up of throws."

Correct, but the practice of "Shuai" is not limited only to shuai chiao(or jiao)...it happens to be a staple of many forms of chuan fa. Examples of which include the praying mantis family, taiji chuan, choy li fut, amongst others, all having varing emphasis on it's use.

Deadpan Scientist
3/07/2003 3:19pm,
A large number of chinese arts predate MT and jujitsu. I previously posted dates concerning how MT postdates shaolin kf. Now it's JJ's turn.

http://www.usjujitsu.net/articles/jujitsuP1.htm

"The oldest Jujitsu movement is the Takenouchi-Ryu, purported to have been originated by Takenouchi Hisamori, a native of Sakushu, in the year of 1532"

Again, Shuai Chiao (mandarin speiiling) was documented during the reign of Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor of the Zhou Dynasty. He gained the throne in 246 BC!

Don't insinuate that chinese wrestling was/is a derivative of judo. That's bullshit, the chinese were wrestling before Kano was a glimmer in his great grandfather's eye.

The greeks were wrestling in 776 BC, so I can see that there may be some sort of influence.



Edited by - brandeissansoo on March 07 2003 14:19:59

Deadpan Scientist
3/07/2003 3:23pm,
Just so you don't get comfortable

http://www.alcofielen.com/pics/forumpics/owned/ownedbull.jpg

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 3:39pm,
Again, Shuai Chiao (mandarin speiiling) was documented during the reign of Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor of the Zhou Dynasty. He gained the throne in 246 BC!

"Don't insinuate that chinese wrestling was/is a derivative of judo. That's bullshit, the chinese were wrestling before Kano was a glimmer in his great grandfather's eye.

The greeks were wrestling in 776 BC, so I can see that there may be some sort of influence."


Actually B,

Shuai Chiao(or perhaps it's predecessor Shua Ti) has been documented at around the time of the Yellow emporer which is about at 5000 B.C. Much earlier than 246 B.C. Whith respect to Jujutsu, it depends on what type of Jujutsu you are refering to. If you mean Jujutsu as a broad term of Japanese Martial arts involving striking, grappling, throwing, kicking, etc. , then you have a history that is about 1000 years old. If you are talking about the route Jujutsu took a around the beggining of the Meiji period...then yeah..it's beginning is around the 1500's. Koppojutsu for example is about 800 to 1000 years old depending on who you ask.

Deadpan Scientist
3/07/2003 3:48pm,
Yellow emperor was in power around 2700 BC, http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/Y/YellowE1m.asp
I'm not sure where you got 5000bc...

I meant it in the broad term.
Either way, I guess my point is the chinese were doing things way before the japanese and thai were. Saying that chinese MA is somehow a ripoff of arts that were created after the chinese arts were is illogical.

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 3:58pm,
hmmm,
you could be right about the time, I will go check again, and yes I agree with your point totally.

Deadpan Scientist
3/07/2003 4:05pm,
Blade Windu: you can't win with this. Give it up and stop being pwned!

Nihilanthic
3/07/2003 4:08pm,
Yes, there are arts that are real old, but age doesn't mean much - the quality does. If its well aged cheese or wine, or even aged meat (not rotten), then age can be, and often is, a measure of quality. As far as fighting arts go, its not. The age and experience of your TRAINER is, but we don't have 1000 year old trainers.

Just by looking at it, San Shou/Sanda is VERY similar to the kind of kickboxing you see in K-1, its VERY similar to the takedowns and throws you'd see in a judo, wrestling, jiujitsu, or grappling tourney. This means one of two things - these are the effective techniques, peroid, and convergent evolution just proved itself as far as fighting goes OR Its a ripoff of them, with a chinese spin (Basically, Communist Approved MMA).

Either way, it works, and Chinese artists, Chinese nationals, and whatnot will make a point of it being Chinese as a point of pride, whether its a ripoff of cookie cutter MMA arts, or a modern selection of techniques that were obscure in the past for one reason or another.

And before anyone makes a point of this - Sanda vs MT fights are pretty much bunk - each side tends to win in their own country! WOW! And because of the rules for techniques/fouls, and the rules for points, AND the fact that the fighters train one art or another, its hardly fair. I still haven't seen a Sanda vs MT fight, where each side can fully use their techniques, though there may be one. The other issue is what flavor of Sanda or MT is represented. Some MT does headbutting, throws, and whatnot. I've only heard a bit of the variations can be in Sanda, and I'm not gonna even touch that until I know more about it.

I think Sanda has a lot of potential to develop farther, and those takedowns and throws are real crowd pleasing (not that a clinch isn't if the crowd is educated), but it still looks like a real big me-too Chinese MMA art, and I can really see why. The clinch striking in that art is obvious by its absence, and thats reason #1 why I see it as an anti-MT art.

Give Sanda full MT clinch striking, elbows, knees, whatnot, and tell the ref to take a walk during a clinch instead of breaking it up, you got an excellent art.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Mikeyb
3/07/2003 4:22pm,
Yes, it looks similar, but so does american kickboxing, does it may it MT? does it make it a rip on MT, no...it is Chinese MA applied to the ring, just as american kick boxing was/is an attempt to bring Karate as practiced here to the ring.

Deadpan Scientist
3/07/2003 4:24pm,
San Shou is government approved kung fu competition. Period.