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Te(V)plar
2/26/2005 3:28pm,
*Preface* Paladin got into trouble for publishing this book, so they gave up all rights to it. So I think it might be alright to post this on here:

http://s26.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=29OQRK6J6TUOP1UYYG2DB3A7TQ

I was already skeptical when I realized this **** was published by Paladin Press. Some of the stuff is decent advice (although honestly it's common sense) and some of it leaves me scratching my head (he keeps talking about killing people with a 22.... which is FUCKING RETARDED). I wonder if any of the gun nuts on here can verify if the Build Your Own Silencer Recipe is full of ****. He speaks briefly on hand to hand combat, and for the most part I found it innaccurate (he talks abotu pressure point strikes, for example).

And seriously, what credentials does the author have?

This pdf reads like an adolescent kid's hitman fantasy, to be honest.

JohnnyCache
2/26/2005 3:41pm,
.22LR is a very wicked caliber. It's not like a .22 or .25 short.

MEGALEF
2/26/2005 3:42pm,
There is a chapter about "Ego, women and partners"..

JohnnyCache
2/26/2005 3:44pm,
Three things that screw up a good caper every time, see.

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 3:45pm,
Actually, .22LR can be used effectively to assainate people, or so an ex-marine I knew told me.

The idea is that you fire the .22LR cartridge into the little gap in the skull behind the ear so that it can get to the brain without having to penetrate the skull.

Even a small round through the brain basically kills you.

Of course, if he's talking about center-of-mass shots with .22LR that's basically silly, since it would take a long time for someone to die from blood loss and shock in such a case if they are going to die at all.

EDIT: Jesus, that graphic on the first page is retarded. Gaaah, fantasyland!

Te(V)plar
2/26/2005 3:48pm,
Actually, .22LR can be used effectively to assainate people, or so an ex-marine I knew told me.

The idea is that you fire the .22LR cartridge into the little gap in the skull behind the ear so that it can get to the brain without having to penetrate the skull.

Even a small round through the brain basically kills you.

Of course, if he's talking about center-of-mass shots with .22LR that's basically silly, since it would take a long time for someone to die from blood loss and shock in such a case if they are going to die at all.
Yeah, exactly, basically ANY round to the head will be fatal. However, a hitman can't honestly go in expecting a headshot every time. A .45 and a .22LR will get a kill with a headshot, but that .45 is gonna make a chest shot a whole lot more effective. The only reason I could see a .22 (I dont know what an LR is) over a .45 is perhaps the .22 is easier to silence?

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 3:52pm,
Yeah, exactly, basically ANY round to the head will be fatal. However, a hitman can't honestly go in expecting a headshot every time. A .45 and a .22LR will get a kill with a headshot, but that .45 is gonna make a chest shot a whole lot more effective. The only reason I could see a .22 (I dont know what an LR is) over a .45 is perhaps the .22 is easier to silence?

My understanding (I heard about this secondhand, though my friend) is that .22 is very easily silenced compared to other cartridges because it's so small and weak. However, .45 ACP is subsonic anyway, so it also silences easily. (The round dosen't need to be artificially made subsonic by the mechanism to avoid a sonic crack.)

Anyway, the point of .22LR in my above post isn't to engage the guy in a short-range firefight hoping for a headshot. The idea rather is to use it to execute someone when he's already bound or helpless.

So if you were in a situation where you were to go up to someone, pull a handgun, and try to blow him away on the street or something, that wouldn't be appropriate for .22LR in the first place, as I understand it. You'd only use the .22LR after successfully abducting or restraining the guy, or something like that.

For fear of sounding like a Soldier of Fortune reading Phil Elmore wannabe, I emphasize again that this is just what I had gathered from conversations with a friend of mine who used to be a marine.



EDIT: Ha! Speaking of Soldier of Fortune magazine, on pg. 8 of this hitman manual it tells you to read Soldier of Fortune magazine! :new_xmas:

EDIT 2: On pg. 14 it says that Ruger Mk. 2s seldom jam if kept clean. That's a laugh. I've gotten so many jams on Ruger Mk. 2s, myself. Granted, they were being used by a firearms class that I was in so they had seen a lot of use, but they were at least cleaned occasionally. A jam or two was not unusual over the course of a couple hours, and the worst I've ever experienced with the Mk. 2 was constant jamming every 15 minutes or so with constant firing, although that was probably a very dirty one.

JohnnyCache
2/26/2005 4:02pm,
A 22LR travels at 1600+ fps - it's a lot faster then a typical pistol round so some of the power it looses for size, it gets back in speed.

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 4:06pm,
But this is getting back to the old issue of muzzle velocity vs. round diameter and stopping power. The velocity of the round is not the most important determinant of stopping power.

In fact, very high velocity with very small diameter can result in the round going through an unarmored individual with minimal physical trauma.

DISCLAIMER: Or so my friend told me. ;)

But seriously, you can google up the FBI report on ballistics and stopping power for an analysis of the issue from the FBI.


EDIT: Heh heh, on pg. 14 the guy gives guidelines for filling your hollow point rounds with poison and sealing them with wax. IF we're talking sniping someone out with an AR 7, wouldn't that really mess with the ballistics? Speaking of ballistics, wouldn't a homemade silencer plus weird rounds with wax on them make your round fly really strangely?

In fact, does .22LR even come in hollow point? I honestly don't know what the case is.


EDIT 2: Later down on pg. 14 the man states that three rounds from the Ruger will "ensure quick and sure death." Okay, now *THAT* is bona fide horseshit. Absolute horseshit. There is absolutely no guarantee you'll be able to "drop" anyone with 3 rounds from a small caliber handgun. Anyone who knows anything about firearms knows this.


EDIT 3: On the top of pg. 25 the author claims you can stab someone discretely in public with an ice pick to the kidney while you walk past him.

That's retarded. Even if you did stab deeply enough to puncture the kidney the victim will be fine if he gets prompt medical help. So, more horseshit.

JohnnyCache
2/26/2005 4:13pm,
I did that:

"Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot"

Our tax dollars at work.

And yes, .22 LR comes in a hollowpoint.

And surviving three in the head from a .22 would be a rarity.

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 4:22pm,
I did that:

"Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot"

Our tax dollars at work.


I won't comment on this, not being an expert myself. But I've seen (on security camera footage) people get shot and fall down but survive the incident.



And yes, .22 LR comes in a hollowpoint.

And surviving three in the head from a .22 would be a rarity.

Three in the head, I would agree. But it would basically have to be in the head.


EDIT: Okay, this guide book is causing me too much pain. I have to stop reading now.

Sigh...let's post it on paxbacalum.com and watch the guys there cheese themselves.

JohnnyCache
2/26/2005 4:32pm,
I'm not discounting the conclusions of the report, that one piece of language just hopped out at me and said "mock"

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 4:38pm,
Aha, indeed.

Knives
2/26/2005 6:49pm,
The .22 is MUCH easier to silence, has a higher range, and is more accurate than a .45. A .45 won't shoot 50 yards without considerable drop. A .22 can be deadly from surprising distances. A sniper with a .22 in an urban environment (no 300 yard shots there you know) would be very effective. ESPECIALLY considering that some .22's are available with 30 round clips and fire semi-auto.

A .22 for hitman work is not rediculous unless you're talking about running in with a pistol. THEN it gets kinda silly.

VikingPower
2/26/2005 8:04pm,
That book was written by a woman who was just a regular housewife many years ago if it's the same one I'm thinking of. It's the one that starts off with the guy who does the hit after changing disguises 3 times and shoots the guy watching TV right?

Wounded Ronin
2/26/2005 8:06pm,
ESPECIALLY considering that some .22's are available with 30 round clips and fire semi-auto.



WTF? 7.62 is available in semi-auto, too. And if you want a big magazine just get a pre ban one.

Those are not reasons why .22LR would be better for sniping someone out than 5.56 or 7.62 or any other rifle cartridge.

And if we want to talk accuracy, I'd accept offhand that .22LR might have better ballistics than .45 ACP. But ultimately .22LR is just like a very small pistol cartridge. You'll still get better accuracy, if accuracy is what you want, from an actual rifle cartridge that, you know, looks like a rifle cartridge.

Just use .300 Whisper. Photos: http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/

That way, in the even that you fail to get a perfect eye socket shot with the .22LR at a distance, you won't have failed to actually do damage that might be lethal.