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VikingPower
2/24/2005 4:33pm,
There's never really any good clips out there on the Bujinkan to be honest, but I managed to get a bunch together that are probably some of the better ones out there. I also gave some of the best ones out with the website so you don't have to watch them all and can see the better ones. My dojo's getting some up there soon and if we ever have a Throwdown in PA hopefully I can get some more, but for now, this will give you an idea on some of the techniques and the way how Tajutsu works. I'm not happy with all of em, but share what you think.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20098

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/pictures.html (best ones are Sean Askew Training and Yoko Nagare)

http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/multimedia.html (Juji Gatame might look a little familiar to the BJJ guys ;) The Koho Kaiten one is just ukemi, skip it.)

http://www.pittsburghbujinkan.com/pbd_103.htm (best ones are Taijutsu4 and the throw in Hanbo4)

http://tv.motionmanage.com/net_hp/navi/navi.aspx?site_id=nodasi&channel=0&movie_no=339&link=ok (some good stuff here)

http://www.members.kconline.com/warsawmartialart/videos.html (horribly slow however :P)

http://www.yamamizuryu.org/bujinkanobb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 (way too short though)

http://www.club540.com/viewclip2120.html (takes forever to load cause it's probably dialup, but good stuff)(For Club540, use the log-in name of woowoo and the password whistle, from Bugmenot.com)

http://www.bujinkanlondon.dsl.pipex.com/Ten_Ryaku_no_Maki.htm (good techniques but it's often down)

http://shinkentaijutsu.com/content/tour.php (Kunai video is OK, other two have no techniques)

http://www.kesshi.com/downloads/ (Weird-ass Aborigine-like music, techno, and even Eminem playing on most. Best ones are Keiko03 (specifically Matt Hjelms), Shugyou2 (starts off slow, though), and TenChiJin (just ignore the weird headband). Nawa Nage is kinda cool too, just show-off stuff though)

http://kihon.com/dojo/movies.html (some decent clips, others are terrible)

http://www.bujinkanadelaide.org.au/multimedia.htm#video (Kihon Happo clips, often down however)

Aesopian
2/24/2005 4:40pm,
I'm sure chin na has the armbar too, but it's still a joke.

VikingPower
2/24/2005 4:49pm,
^ It's not so bad. I wasn't expecting you to go "OMFG DAT IZ T3H D34DLY!!" but just show it does have some good effective stuff in it.

bushi51
2/24/2005 4:50pm,
I'm sure chin na has the armbar too, but it's still a joke.


I have yet to see a Bujinkan video that impresses me.


How come they are not recognized as a Koryu again?

bushi51
2/24/2005 4:51pm,
^ It's not so bad. I wasn't expecting you to go "OMFG DAT IZ T3H D34DLY!!" but just show it does have some good effective stuff in it.


If by effective you mean "shitty", then yes its effective.

VikingPower
2/24/2005 5:01pm,
http://koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4


Is ninjutsu or ninpo taijutsu considered to be a koryu?
As one aspect of the martial arts, the equivalent, more or less, of military intelligence, this is certainly a legitimate area of study, and techniques are included within the curricula of several comprehensive classical systems. But ninjutsu simply no longer exists as an independent ryu-ha or art. What is commonly taught as ninjutsu, in Japan and elsewhere, is a fairly recent collection of unarmed and weapons arts, two of which are independent koryu. This does not mean that these arts are not technically valid or that they don't have historical provenance. But, the modern arts taught as ninjutsu and ninpo or budo taijutsu (whichever version of the name you favor) cannot be considered koryu per se. For more information, we've assembled some other researchers' opinions on this question at "Ninjutsu: Is it koryu bujutsu?" For another point of view, see Ken Harding's "What is koryu?"

They don't consider it koryu as it's more of a collection of arts all together than one independent art, hence why it's not considered koryu.

Thaiboxerken
2/24/2005 5:04pm,
Ninjas are funny. What a bunch of idiots.

Aesopian
2/24/2005 5:24pm,
I suppose I should eloborate, since I've been considered "trollish" as of late.

Whether or not an art has a certain submission doesn't really impress us "BJJ guys".

We are impressed by someone being able to skillfully use positional dominance (guard work, sweeps, guard passes, side control, mount, transitions, etc.), setups and timing to affect submissions. We are also impressed by the the depth of understanding and attention to detail someone has when doing all of these. Most of all we are impressed when someone can do all of this under stress against a fully resisting opponent.

Submissions are just icing on a cake. The rest of ground fighting is the cake.

I can go down to the local TKD school and "learn an armbar" from their Hapikido instructor. I can look in a chin na book and see an armbar. I can watch some ninja do one a video. None of these impress me.

I suppose kickboxers should be impressed too, since you have the punch and the kick?

Thaiboxerken
2/24/2005 5:29pm,
Yes, and FMA guys should be impressed because they have knife disarms....... But we're not.

HAPKO3
2/24/2005 5:30pm,
Aesopian is correct.

VikingPower
2/24/2005 5:41pm,
Whether or not an art has a certain submission doesn't really impress us "BJJ guys".

Merely stated that due to claims of ninjutsu possessing no groundfighting at all.


We are impressed by someone being able to skillfully use positional dominance (guard work, sweeps, guard passes, side control, mount, transitions, etc.), setups and timing to affect submissions.

Much of what taijutsu is is using different stances and set-ups to off-balance our opponents and apply our techniques. Timing is also very important, as we don't avoid until just the last second, right when it crosses through our opponent's mind that they're about to hit us. Most of the demos are slow and some aren't that great at all, but you can see the smooth transitions from stance to stance and the destruction of their opponent's balance.


We are also impressed by the the depth of understanding and attention to detail someone has when doing all of these.

Pay attention more to the feet then, and you'll see it's very subtle how some of these work. As I've said, these are far from what I'd really like to show, but it's probably the best the web has to offer right now.

HAPKO3
2/24/2005 5:47pm,
What it comes down to is that the only way to demonstrate that Bujinkan students are proficient in ground-fighting would be to enter grappling competitions and see how they do. It doesn't take all that much skill to demo this or that move. Pulling it off against a trained and resisting opponent is a different story.

Don't expect anyone to be impressed with demos.

VikingPower
2/24/2005 5:54pm,
Shidoshi Dan Buckley (he's the one from the Columbus Ninjutsu dojo) is the lightweight champion of EFC 6, here's the old record from his page:

http://fcfighter.brinkster.net/fighter.asp?FighterID=249834

The guy he fought however obviously doesn't have the best record in the world, but for the most part you won't see too many ninjutsu practitioners in MMA competitions. There's a few (my buddy Brian is training up for a local event as we speak) but I agree, there needs to be more or at least more realistic demonstrations. That's the main reason why I hope to get some of either us at our dojo or some at a Throwdown.

We could ask Primo, he fought at the same competition as Dan Buckley and see what he thought.

SMF
2/24/2005 5:54pm,
but why the hostility? they're just clips afterall. I think a lot of you guys forget you are repremanding a guy who did a lot of training in a whole bunch of arts before deciding to focus on the bujinkan.

VikingPower
2/24/2005 5:59pm,
but why the hostility? they're just clips afterall. I think a lot of you guys forget you are repremanding a guy who did a lot of training in a whole bunch of arts before deciding to focus on the bujinkan.

Some of them for not too long, however, for a variety of different reasons. Still, I've been a boxer for many years and have fought in a handful kickboxing and MMA bouts and I find it useful. I know it's not everyone's cup of java, but I'm just trying to prove it's not as ineffective as many think.

Thanks for the support, Stupid MF, and thanks for the feedback from everyone else. Even though I don't agree with all that's been said, it is good to see what kind of feedback I get back as that way I can incorporate more of what you're looking for into a video we can make.

HAPKO3
2/24/2005 6:04pm,
I don't think there's any hostility. Not on my part in any case. It's just that demoing an armbar is not impressive at all. Like Aesopian said, you can go to any martial art school and learn how to throw a punch. You can go to a lot of places and learn an armbar. This, however, will not make you impressive as a grappler, much like learning how to punch does not make you an impressive striker.

I'm sure there are some bujinkan schools that have it right. However, untill there's a certain number of people representing the art in competitions, there's nothing to be impressed about. It's not hostility, it's a statement of fact.

And one or two people doing well doesn't really mean all that much either. As they say, exceptions prove the rule. Case in point - Keith Hackney did pretty well in the UFC and even gave Royce a decent fight. This, however, does not mean that White Tiger Kenpo is a viable art to train for MMA competition. Same goes for Kimo and TKD, which is all he did at the time.

You can not judge a school by one or two badasses. Some people are just natural fighters, and will beat your face in with anything you give them. Untill it's demonstrated that the average student who's been training hard for a couple of years can in fact fight, you can't say much for an art.