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Sideburnt
2/07/2005 11:34am,
It seems kind of weird to me, my friend's girlfriends studies tae soo do (sp?), and I went to one of her classes because she was undergoing a belt test so we were going to go out to eat afterwards. I practice Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, so I was a little put off by the extreme formality, but that was prolly just me. Anyways the instructor sits behind this big desk and is wearing some sort of Korean dress uniform. The testees all show their forms, and do breaks, but they also have to recite a really long creed in korean and english. After that the instructor takes one part of the creed and asks each student what it means to them (I.E. honor your country, honor your parents) One of the testees is a 6 or 7 year old girl, and the instructor asks her what does honor your country mean. She says, "I don't know" and he gets a little firm with her and stops the test and waits for her to answer. She almost started to break down, then one of the other students helped the girl and t instructor got mad at the helping student, but the test went on. Then each of the testees did some sparring. It was all punch punch kick. Basically that exact combination, or kick punch kick, and the instructor got mad because they weren't using techniques that they had learned up to that level.

My point is, I want to know a little bit more about this "flowering knight" martial art. It seems kind of culty to me, and she can't spar worth ****, even though she's been doing TSD longer than My friend has been doing Kung Fu and a lot longer than I have been doing GJJ. Yet whenever we get into a discussion about UFC or self defense she says that an equal level TSD person can beat an equal level anything else. When we ask her or any of her buddies to spar they won't. Well the buddies won't, the girlfriend will spar but she gets frustrated really fast because we are "cheating" (wrong stance, wrong block formation, no takedowns, no head shots {we just tap on the head} ) None of her buddies in TSD will spar because they say they are not suposed to fight other martial artisits, and that TSD is for "real Life protection"
Now I am not trying to totally knock on Tae Soo Do, I just don't know anything about it except for what I have seen. Does anybody have any good information on this, maybe just the school and the instructor are weird, or maybe I just need to be more open about how some martial arts are conducted, but it weirded me out and I want to know more if anyone has any thoughts.

:book1:

Phoenix
2/07/2005 12:48pm,
Sounds just like Taekwondo and pretty much every other Korean martial art.

LiZhiShang
2/07/2005 12:54pm,
Hwrang Do and Tae So Do (or Tang Su Do) are *not* the same thing. The Hwrang (literally translated is "flowering princes") were taught not only martial arts, but culture stuff as well- including poetry, calligraphy, etc. The Hwrang were known for their sword skill, using a Korean blade that generally was straight, and thicker than most japanese blades.

Many of the Hwrang skools around these days are McDojos, and last I heard the Hwrang groups had lots of 'political' unrest internally. Those still linked to the Korean groups send huge percentages of the school's income for dues, fees, etc... as result, if you find a Hwrang school, it won't be uncommon for it to be 'broken away' from the 'official' Hangook (Korean) group.

(Sadly) many schools these days severely limit sparring, or completely eliminate it all together. There are several reasons for this, but a few of the reasons are more prevalent that others: (I don't agree with these, it's just the justification I've seen used over and over...some the 'statistics' may be true)

*Money making McDojos don't want to lose students. By default you will lose a certain percentage of students if you have hard (or any really) sparring in your classes. (I would argue that you will KEEP a certain percent of *real* students this way that you would otherwise lose, but that is another argument)

*Kids classes are the main money staple for many dojos, and sparring can upset parents, children, or both, resulting in the loss of students...loss of students = loss of $$$

*No sparring = no sparring related injuries = less school insurance (BS, I know, injuries will happen anyway)

*it is easier to keep larger numbers of people if what you teach is *EASY* - instant gratification, lack of discomfort, etc....will keep tons and tons of students in your McDojo.

The chaos that is the Korean martial arts world currently is due much in part to the parent groups demanding so much money from the satallites.

Phoenix
2/07/2005 2:33pm,
You think these guys could actually go out there in the real world and...oh, I dunno....get REAL jobs?

Meex
2/07/2005 4:17pm,
Tang Soo Do is basically korean karate. . .it's what Chuck Norris claims as his art. Historical evidence suggests it to be (along with Tae Kwon Do) a direct descendant of Japanese and Okinawan styles, mostly of Shotokan. . .as opposed to lineage claimed to trace back to ancient Korean combat arts.

Hwarang Do is considered a "lost" art, but was introduced in the US by Joo Bang Lee in 1972. Although Lee's training was in (an altered version of) Bok Suh Yu Sool, the Korean version of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jitsu, which later became Hapkido, which Lee's brother Joo Sang Lee introduced to the US in 1968. The system that we know today as Hwa Rang Do has nothing to do with the fighting techniques of the ancient institution of the Hwa Rang (who's origins date to circa 540 AD). The modern version called "Hwa Rang Do" was assembled by Joo Bang Lee in the mid-to late 60's.

"Joo Bang Lee chose the name of a historic warrior band to lend the art and the organization a mystic and historic credibility, but the syllabus of techniques assembled by Joo Bang Lee were purely contemporary and the system has no demonstrable connection to the ancient Hwarang." - Bob Duggan, 1st Generation Hwa Rang Do Instructor


`~/

EternalRage
2/07/2005 4:34pm,
Tang Soo Do is basically korean karate. . .it's what Chuck Norris claims as his art. Historical evidence suggests it to be (along with Tae Kwon Do) a direct descendant of Japanese and Okinawan styles, mostly of Shotokan. . .as opposed to lineage claimed to trace back to ancient Korean combat arts.

Hwarang Do is considered a "lost" art, but was introduced in the US by Joo Bang Lee in 1972. Although Lee's training was in (an altered version of) Bok Suh Yu Sool, the Korean version of Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jitsu, which later became Hapkido, which Lee's brother Joo Sang Lee introduced to the US in 1968. The system that we know today as Hwa Rang Do has nothing to do with the fighting techniques of the ancient institution of the Hwa Rang (who's origins date to circa 540 AD). The modern version called "Hwa Rang Do" was assembled by Joo Bang Lee in the mid-to late 60's.

"Joo Bang Lee chose the name of a historic warrior band to lend the art and the organization a mystic and historic credibility, but the syllabus of techniques assembled by Joo Bang Lee were purely contemporary and the system has no demonstrable connection to the ancient Hwarang." - Bob Duggan, 1st Generation Hwa Rang Do Instructor


`~/

He's talkin about TAE SOO DO. Not TANG SOO DO. Tae Soo Do is some junk that the Hwarang Do system makes you do before actually starting their Hwarang Do programs. From what I understand Tae Soo Do is just another contract to rake in money. HIstorically, Tae Soo Do was one of the original names that they came up with for the system thats now called TKD.

Tang Soo Do definitely acknowledges the Japanese Okinawan as well as CHinese influences. TKD does too although there is still alot of bickering going on about that (see history forum)

and although Chuck Norris started with Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, he's long since moved on... made his own system or some thing Chun Kuk Do or something like that.

It is Fake
2/07/2005 5:08pm,
Hwrang Do and Tae So Do (or Tang Su Do) are *not* the same thing. The Hwrang (literally translated is "flowering princes") were taught not only martial arts, but culture stuff as well- including poetry, calligraphy, etc. The Hwrang were known for their sword skill, using a Korean blade that generally was straight, and thicker than most japanese blades. .

Tae Soo Do is a subset of Hwa Rang Do according to their website: http://www.hwarangdo.com/faq.htm

"After a rigorous analysis of the successes and failures in the martial arts community, Supreme Grandmaster Dr. Joo Bang Lee created Tae Soo DoŽ as a simplified subset of Hwa Rang DoŽ (the undergraduate Hwa Rang DoŽ Program) that is more accessible to all martial art enthusiasts no matter their experience level. Like Tae Kwon Do and Karate, Tae Soo DoŽ is much more sport oriented. It focuses on inner mechanics of the martial arts to build a strong foundation to build upon. One will learn to achieve a sense of confidence to empower them to achieve much higher aspirations within themselves. Tae Soo DoŽ is a very effective means of self defense, physical and mental well-being, and a catalyst for the development of a true, traditional martial artist."

I agree it is a McDojo now. When I started no kid classes headgear, mouthpeice, groin cup and gloves was it. We didn't point spar we were allowed to tryjoint locks. I can see the liability issues for toning it down. Then suddenly they introduced a contract system. I injured myself and took about6 months off. I went back and all of these changes had been implemented. I don't know when Tae Soo Do was added to the curriculum but it was after 1996. at least in AZ.

Meex
2/07/2005 5:18pm,
He's talkin about TAE SOO DO. Not TANG SOO DO. Tae Soo Do is some junk that the Hwarang Do system makes you do before actually starting their Hwarang Do programs. From what I understand Tae Soo Do is just another contract to rake in money. HIstorically, Tae Soo Do was one of the original names that they came up with for the system thats now called TKD.

Tang Soo Do definitely acknowledges the Japanese Okinawan as well as CHinese influences. TKD does too although there is still alot of bickering going on about that (see history forum)

and although Chuck Norris started with Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, he's long since moved on... made his own system or some thing Chun Kuk Do or something like that.
Thanks for the correction. . .here's some info from hwarangdo.com:

Tae Soo Do
"The martial art of Tae Soo DoŽ was created as the undergraduate program to, and sports version of Hwa Rang DoŽ. Since the Hwa Rang DoŽ curriculum is very advanced and complicated because there is so much learn, it was often difficult for an individual without previous martial skill training to progress through Hwa Rang DoŽ. The Tae Soo DoŽ syllabus is designed to build a foundation of physical skills as well as proper attitude for the nonexperienced practitioner. This program helps the student understand the fundamentals, basic mechanics, and philosophies inherent in Hwa Rang DoŽ.

**
(as a side note: before Tae Kwon Do unified, KongSooDo and TangSooDo (SooBakDo) had an organization name for a short time called the Korean TaeSooDo Association. This name is no longer use by TaeKwonDo, and the meaning of this TaeSooDo is the "way of body and hands". However, the meaning of this Tae Soo DoŽ is a martial art name that means the "Way of the Great Hand" or the "Way of the Warrior Spirit," so please do not confuse these). "


`~/

Freddy
2/07/2005 6:19pm,
It seems kind of weird to me, my friend's girlfriends studies tae soo do (sp?), and I went to one of her classes because she was undergoing a belt test so we were going to go out to eat afterwards. I practice Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, so I was a little put off by the extreme formality, but that was prolly just me. Anyways the instructor sits behind this big desk and is wearing some sort of Korean dress uniform. The testees all show their forms, and do breaks, but they also have to recite a really long creed in korean and english. After that the instructor takes one part of the creed and asks each student what it means to them (I.E. honor your country, honor your parents) One of the testees is a 6 or 7 year old girl, and the instructor asks her what does honor your country mean. She says, "I don't know" and he gets a little firm with her and stops the test and waits for her to answer. She almost started to break down, then one of the other students helped the girl and t instructor got mad at the helping student, but the test went on. Then each of the testees did some sparring. It was all punch punch kick. Basically that exact combination, or kick punch kick, and the instructor got mad because they weren't using techniques that they had learned up to that level.

My point is, I want to know a little bit more about this "flowering knight" martial art. It seems kind of culty to me, and she can't spar worth ****, even though she's been doing TSD longer than My friend has been doing Kung Fu and a lot longer than I have been doing GJJ. Yet whenever we get into a discussion about UFC or self defense she says that an equal level TSD person can beat an equal level anything else. When we ask her or any of her buddies to spar they won't. Well the buddies won't, the girlfriend will spar but she gets frustrated really fast because we are "cheating" (wrong stance, wrong block formation, no takedowns, no head shots {we just tap on the head} ) None of her buddies in TSD will spar because they say they are not suposed to fight other martial artisits, and that TSD is for "real Life protection"
Now I am not trying to totally knock on Tae Soo Do, I just don't know anything about it except for what I have seen. Does anybody have any good information on this, maybe just the school and the instructor are weird, or maybe I just need to be more open about how some martial arts are conducted, but it weirded me out and I want to know more if anyone has any thoughts.

:book1:

Use the search function. Theres quite a number of stuff on Hawrangdo. Its a b.s. organization.

Sideburnt
2/07/2005 6:34pm,
Thank you all for the responses. I had an inkling, but I'm pretty much re-affirmed by you guys that it is a bunch of crap. I'll do a forum search for more info.

albert
2/07/2005 7:26pm,
Sounds just like Taekwondo and pretty much every other Korean martial art.


And aside from videogames, obviously, what the hell do you know? I have 10 years in Korean MA - more than enough time to know that it's time wasted - from Phoenix's revenge rep

Your personal experience with TKD does not justify the sweeping statement you said about KMA. You're basically saying all TKD is like Sideburnt's initial description, which is ridiculous.

In general yes, KMAs suffer from all the problems we know about. But I insist you stop being such a narrow-minded ****. I will stop distending your already sore intellectual anus now, please return to writing traffic tickets. Good day. :qcheerlea

edit: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21147
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20391&highlight=polish+tkd

the dozer
2/16/2005 2:43pm,
Having first hand experience with Hwa Rang Do/Tae Soo Do, I will say that I do believe that a majority of what has been written so far is true. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is a BS organization (there is a lot of BS on the inside though), but I do believe their Association is slowly deteriorating.

Wounded Ronin
2/16/2005 2:51pm,
Oh my, oh my.

Reikon
2/16/2005 4:24pm,
go take a free class, and when you spar (if you spar) use BJJ...

lifetime
2/16/2005 10:33pm,
Who the **** cares what they're called? They're **** mate, end of story.

Fucking Korean martial arts.

antonanton
2/16/2005 11:08pm,
go take a free class, and when you spar (if you spar) use BJJ...

I went to a Hwarangdo demo at Taejoon lees school and was pretty impressed with what I saw. There was some BS stuff at lower levels like people doing forms to techno music but also some pretty talented people there. They also have a very good ground fighting program being taught there now so using Bjj on them might not be as useful as you would think. I know a kid who trains there and he is a incredible fighter and athlete all around. Master Lee himself is an amazing martial artist. They train really hard at that school and lots of people don't like taejoon for being so rough on his students- but you really see the benefits of it in the higher level students.
Taesoodo seems kind of like bull ****, but it's just the opening program before you learn hwarangdo. I don't think they do any sparring in taesoodo, however in the hwarangdo program I know they do a lot of it. Master lee has a big reputation of being an asshole- I've met him and I have to say he's a very intimidating guy- He's known to make people vomit and pass out from training them so hard.
I wouldn't brush this school off as total bullshido. It may have some bullshido aspects. But I would never want to mess with a higher level hwarang student