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garbanzo
2/01/2005 2:55pm,
I have heard much discussion on KM boards about various techniques not being effective in the street and about biting and gouging etc.

I had always assumed that arm bars were among the moves that KM practitioners would look down upon becuase it of the biting factor, not to mention multiple attackers, etc.

Yet the following image from a KM class in the UK would seem to imply that they teach arm bars:

http://www.devonkravmaga.co.uk/Demonstrating%20an%20arm%20lock%20on%20Hannah%2001 .jpg

Are there any folks who do KM who can shed some light on this?

Shuma-Gorath
2/01/2005 3:00pm,
A properly-done armbar will leave neither the space nor the time to bite the leg. If your legs are curled tight enough the victim's mouth will be pointed upwards towards your knee. The guy in that photo is not curling his legs and not squeezing his knees enough.

The more I hear about Krav, the more I'm noticing that no two schools teach the same stuff, and the better ones are just teaching some form of MMA Lite.

Aesopian
2/01/2005 3:07pm,
Kravboxing and krappling.

Rigante
2/01/2005 3:12pm,
KM was the first place I ever got any experience in BJJ. Granted is was very, very fundamental but I really liked it. Btw the exposure to BJJ and the sparring we did I fight nights, I decided to switch to an MMA club where I train in boxing and BJJ.

Agent86
2/01/2005 4:23pm,
KM was the first place I ever got any experience in BJJ. Granted is was very, very fundamental but I really liked it. Btw the exposure to BJJ and the sparring we did I fight nights, I decided to switch to an MMA club where I train in boxing and BJJ.

Same here. The club I took KM in also has shootfighting/mma and same teachers teach both, so a lot of stuff kinda leaked through. Although KM ground technique is very basic compared to, say, bjj, stuff like armbar was included.

Peter H.
2/01/2005 5:09pm,
Does anyone realize that $300 buys you a certification to teach Krav Maga from a bunch of different orgs, regardless of your MA experince?

I'm not kidding, I get flyers, e-mails, and such about once every two months to go down to Dallas for a 6 hour KM instructors course.

Not saying there aren't some good KM schools out there. But I am sure a lot of guys teaching KM went and got these certs so they could add a few different techniques to what they already did and call it KM and grab the cash cow buy the fucking udder and milk the bitch.

Rigante
2/01/2005 5:26pm,
What organizations are you referring to. This doesnt sound like the Krav Maga Assocition of America which I trained under. Like many things in the MA's organizations have different standards and schools under the same organization may have different quality. Maybe I just happend upon a good one, I dont know but it was a year well spent.

Yrkoon9
2/01/2005 5:32pm,
My cousin does KM. She's been doing it for many years. She knows armbars, chokes, triangles, etc. It isn't like they don't teach that stuff, they just don't encourage it. They have more of a strike, strike, run philosophy. If you get taken down, strike strike get up, run.

Peter H.
2/01/2005 6:53pm,
What organizations are you referring to. This doesnt sound like the Krav Maga Assocition of America which I trained under. Like many things in the MA's organizations have different standards and schools under the same organization may have different quality. Maybe I just happend upon a good one, I dont know but it was a year well spent.

Next time, I get a flier, I'll save it and let you know, but just do an internet search and you can pop up a 72 course for KM instructorship from WKMF. All you have to be is a Green Belt in KM or a Black Belt in another art. Here's the link:
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/instructeursen.html


As I said, there are probably some good ones out there, but stuff like this gives arts a bad name.

Rigante
2/01/2005 7:04pm,
I agree, it seems people will do anything to make a buck these days. Let the buyer beware is good advice.

v1o
2/01/2005 7:19pm,
Isnt Krav Maga a combination of styles including JUdo?

The founder was a black belt in many arts

nasty_totoro
2/01/2005 7:21pm,
even shotokan teaches deadly armbars these days ... so they claim anyways ...

floonine
2/01/2005 10:37pm,
I am extremely confused about Krav Maga. The guy who taught it, or was "authorized to instruct it" in San Marcos, advertised Krav Maga solely, and then all the flyers around town turned into "Yoga and Kickboxing." And then, I saw a demo that was absolutely comical, but wasn't supposed to be.

Judah Maccabee
2/01/2005 10:45pm,
Isnt Krav Maga a combination of styles including JUdo?

The founder was a black belt in many arts

Imi Sde-Or was a champion swimmer, wrestler, and boxer.

He was also an accomplished street fighter in pre-WWII Slovakia against anti-Semitic gangs.

oldtyger
2/02/2005 1:55am,
I have trained in krav maga under 2 different instructors. Don't do it regularly but my first teacher claimed to be the first non-Israeli KM combat instructor and trained with Imi himself. His methods differed from what my second teacher taught, although were overall very similar. My first teacher also has taijiquan, baguaquan, and other arts so his methods may have been adapted. Imi was impressed enough by his skills that he wanted him to help him develop KM, which is a constantly evolving art. KM tries to take the best techniques from any and all martial arts and incorporate it into a self-defense system--at least that is the civilian aspect of KM that is taught in the US. Similar to the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do but not in methods since KM here is mainly self-defense oriented, often to the point of defend, strike as much as you can, then escape( which was mentioned above). I did a little BJJ before my 2nd KM teacher( never got to any ground skills with my 1st) and so it was pretty easy for me. I agree that the grappling is basic but that's because it's not a system of ground fighting so much as ground self-defense so you can get away.

I think it's important to understand the philosophy of KM which explains its hows, whats, and whys and separates it( at least what little I have seen of it in civilian aspects in the US as opposed to what is taught to the Israeli military) from many other martial arts. I've compared several techniques from different martial arts and I think KM is very effective as self-defense, utilizing simple moves that often work much better than more complicated movements from other arts.

As for armlocks, never got to learn any but any technique is valid as long as it's simple, fast, effective, strong, and fast.

Mayhem
2/02/2005 5:31am,
Next time, I get a flier, I'll save it and let you know, but just do an internet search and you can pop up a 72 course for KM instructorship from WKMF. All you have to be is a Green Belt in KM or a Black Belt in another art. Here's the link:
http://www.kravmaga.be/pages/instructeursen.html


As I said, there are probably some good ones out there, but stuff like this gives arts a bad name.

I had never heard of the World Krav Maga Federation until I checked out the above post. This led me here:

http://www.kravmagaonline.com/contactsen.html

Funny that the head office should be in Italy?!?!?
Looks like they have made their own KM Federation
Until now I was only aware of the IKMF and the American KM (which both originated from Imi).

We do learn armbars in KM, as well as many other submissions. The emphasis, however, is put on getting up and out of there as soon as possible. A lot of training focuses on getting out of things like headlock and chokes.

We also do full-contact sparring. The self-defence techniques are supposed to avoid a one-on-one confrontation, but things don't always go to plan so it's good to know how to fight.

As far as I know KM has none of it's own techniques. It borrows bits and pieces from many other styles. The system is constantly changing.

Its not a perfect system and practicioners are not superhuman. It's a shame that so much Bullshido has become associated with what is a decent method of self-defense.