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Lampa
1/23/2005 7:30pm,
Okay, I was 50/50 on if this should go in technique or bullshido, so I might be in for a berrating and moving.

The first place I trained in as a young'un was, to my knowledge, one of the first karate dojos that acknowledged that grappling does happen. So we did very live grappling training as part of the cirriculum. As far as sheer liveliness, it was probably some of the better training I've seen in karate. The problem with it was that there was very little in the way of instruction. My guess is that my former shihan knew the importance of having some skills on the ground, but because his own training was more traditional didn't have much to impart on his students in the way of knowledge. Rather, he showed his students some basics, (triangles, escapes, counters) put us against someone about our same size, and had us go for the tap. Not that any of it was ****. The little he showed us still seems perfectly acceptable, though unrefined. But the students were sort of just left to their own devices to figure out the best way to control their opponent.

Needless to say, it was decidedly inferior to the grappling education you would get at any submission school, today. However, I consider it important to have both a stand up and ground game. I also realize that not all of us, myself included, have the money and time to train at two seperate schools.

While I'm happier where I am now and realize my first experience with grappling was all full of holes, I still believe in the idea of something being better than nothing. So, in my nostalgia I'm curious if anyone currently in kenpo or another style of karate whose dojo is incorporating grappling can tell me about the improvements in the grappling education given. Hopefully there have been some.

Aesop and others: I openly acknowloedge in this thread that bjj would a much better education in grappling. But I think those who are in a stand up school and can't go to two places at once benefit greatly by having some ground options. I'm curious if the places that follow this philosophy have improved their training methods. I know I'm repeating myself here but I'm expecting a comment anyway and am attempting to brace.

Shuma-Gorath
1/23/2005 7:51pm,
We were shown the standard mount escape and a mediocre guard pass in my last Karate school. We also did some other positional escapes to get back to the feet, but it was far from "live". The concept was good, but I had the large bouncer guy in class side pin me one day and I couldn't get out with what they'd shown us, so the next day I hit my instructor up for Judo school recommendations. He was reluctant at first but eventually told me to check out the local university club.

My departure from that mcdojo would follow about six months later.

There was also one class where it was the last night before the school closed for the holidays and pairs of people were put in the centre of the mat and given "goals", i.e. one person has to pin the other while this other person tries to stay standing. I had some half-assed Judo training from 7th grade and a copy of Kodokan Judo, so I schooled everyone who didn't have a massive weight advantage. In retrospect, I dub that entire exercise "Crappling".


In conclusion, I'm of the opinion that if your school advertises a striking art you teach a striking art and some takedown defence if you can fit it in, but just refer those interested in grappling to a school that teaches grappling. The inverse is also true, of course.


Aesop and others: I openly acknowloedge in this thread that bjj would a much better education in grappling.

No need to worry about that.

punchingdummy
1/23/2005 8:20pm,
So, in my nostalgia I'm curious if anyone currently in kenpo or another style of karate whose dojo is incorporating grappling can tell me about the improvements in the grappling education given. Hopefully there have been some.

TSK. Started as a Kyokoshin school...eventually added sub grappling...then the stand-up has morphed into MT....with western boxing punches.

First, grappling was the beginning of a series of changes which recognized that martial arts was more than simply karate. Once they were willing to add grappling, it was easier to add western boxing hand techniues, etc.

Second, the quality of the sub grappling started to improve when the school started to include it in intra-school competitions. It got better when TSK started to compete in NAGA and the like where the school came up against BJJ players. Competing against BJJ schools will force the school to improve the grappling program.

chaosexmachina
1/23/2005 9:37pm,
The school I'm going to used to be a hardcore karate McDojo. That was before my time there, however. By the time I got there it had morphed into an MMA school. But they still bow at the beginning and end of every class, so some TMA still leaks through.

badandy
1/23/2005 10:55pm,
Tracy Kenpo, while definatly not the best franchise, now offers Shootfighting in addition to the Kenpo. More of an MMA feel...at least where I train. Not sure about the other Tracy ones though.

Poop Loops
1/24/2005 2:07am,
My old TKD school used to do self-defense techniques. About the only thing that it had in common with actual grappling was that you have to grab someone else.

PL

lifetime
1/24/2005 2:15am,
My instructor in Melbourne has us do SOME grappling almost every lesson. We do some groundwork training maybe once a month, where he essentially pairs the class up, tells us to try to take our opponent down to the ground, tells us to escape if pinned/mounted, and basically lets us figure out stuff by ourselves while giving the occasional pointer. I always have the feeling that he knows a lot more than he lets on about realistic, MMA style fighting, but he usually stays pretty much on TKD competition because we're a sports club. I think he's afraid of losing his job as an instructor if he started teaching stuff that was "not TKD" because people would complain.