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Streetfighter
6/23/2002 6:48pm,
Well you asked for a McDojo and here is what I think is one. http://www.wujido.com/

I went to this place one time to check it out and man the guy who runs the place looked like Steven Segal and even had the pony tail. He tried to woo me with stories of fighting a challenge match with someone from another school and how he left that guy in stiches, and how he defeated 10 gangsters who jumped him, where he lived in a bad neighborhood using only his technique and told us that he could teach us this technique for only $150 a month(That was 10 years ago). Do I know for sure they are a McDojo? No, but it looked and sounded like one when I visited.

fogster
6/23/2002 6:49pm,
Mmmmmmmmm..........Let me break this down.

1 The most treasured secrets of Shaolin Temple

2 The oldest and most effective style of Karate

3 How to protect yourself with the world's most effective self defense systems

4 How to gain poise and confidence in stressful situations

5 How to develop laser-like concentration

6 How to use grappling and throws like judo and jujitsu

7 How to achieve a very high level of personal fitness and health

8 How to conquer your fears once and for all

9 How to achieve any goal, any dream you desire

10 How to face the world in a positive and powerful way


#1 If they're so secret, how come he's selling them ?

#2 Yeah right !

#3 Can he prove that ?

#4 What like breathing into a brown paper bag ?

#5 Please ?

#6 The only sensible thing he quoted

#7 By living off fresh fruit,veggies and getting plenty of excercise.

#8 So I will no longer be scared of rats,snakes & heights ? Sure.

#9 What I could be the Ruler of the world ?

#10 That is just garbage, do they do psychology as well ?

Definitely a McDojo.



Bruce Lee,Jet Li,Segal and Van Damme are all actors so shutup about them.
Goldberg is soft

Streetfighter
6/23/2002 6:49pm,
I am saying alleged because the guy who owns the place seems like the guy who would sue for liable if he read this.

Darth Paul
6/23/2002 6:51pm,
What would you be liable for? Telling the truth? Besides with a sitle looking like his somehow I don't think he could afford to sue. I like this part: "Wujido includes techniques found in every martial art known to man."

If that's true, they must have a wherehouse full of weapons.

Phrost
6/23/2002 6:51pm,
Hey Street,

We have a nifty little disclaimer on the front page of the site which states that everything here is presented as opinion. That should cover any issues with libel.

Discuss anything you want, you can't be sued for expressing an opinion and stating facts, especially if the source of the facts is the person in question.

Eventually we're going to have a polling system by which people can submit opinions on whether or not a school/artist is McDojo-level or not.

Streetfighter
6/23/2002 6:52pm,
Cool, I did not see the disclaimer. This guy was a Steven Segal wannabe from hell. I am sure he has plenty of money cause he was charging more then I'm paying now years ago

ThePhenom
6/24/2002 5:52pm,
Streetfighter if Mister Asshole says its OK
Its OK dude. Hey Phrost wheres the members picture gallery at?

liftingaddiction
6/24/2002 6:08pm,
hmm ok there is one way to tell if it is or not. did he tell you that you would be able to really defend yourself but you cant use it against anyone because you could hurt them. if he did then its a mcdojo.

Phrost
6/24/2002 6:12pm,
Posted the answer to that question under Sam's thread.

Sheol
8/13/2002 7:58am,
The Internet is certainly a small place. I was just browsing when I found this old thread.

I have actually have attended that 'school' (not my choice) and concur that it is a McDojo.

1) The sales-pitch is there. "Professor" Harkins, must have attended McDojo college. The 'traditional' focus on finding what a person wants and claiming that the school caters to it, is definitely there.

2) The students are packed in like so many sardines in a can... and practice their kata, lead by assistant instructors. Any 'correction' is inconsistent... but perhaps Dr. Harkins can't be bothered with such lowly aspects of instruction.

3) The practician of other martial arts is opposed in both discussion and attitude... which is not so bad until you consider that what he teaches is a HYBRID of Shotokan Karate-do, Tai Chi Chuan, and traditional Wushu (long-range system). Hmm... can we say "hypocrisy"? Maybe he just doesn't like it when someone else is getting any money from his 'students'. I'm not sure if this counts a McDojo tactic, but it should.

4) Did I mention anything about the contract? 18 months at $130 - $140 per month... plus a $200 sign-up fee. !!! He actually considers his school, well worth it, "even if you learn only one technique"... that was a real quote!

5) Sparring is laughable. While there are some reasonable rules in place to protect people from their own stupidity, this does not justify higher ranking belts having apparently no sparring skill and simply being encouraged to "use all of the techniques you have learned".

6) Speaking of sparring, demonstrations are somewhere in the range of ridiculous and utterly useless. Such demos as "Walking the Street", where a student supposedly gets a chance to practice on fellow students (usually asst. instructors), who play the roles of "assailants". I'm not sure who were more incompetent... the "victim" or the "assailants". Even more silly is "Dr." Harkins' renditions... as he is 'assaulted' by six or more "assailants" who attack one-at-a-time and he doesn't even ATTEMPT to perform flanking. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or jeer when he proclaimed that "these are actually powerful strikes". Yes, obviously you don't want to hurt your students, but such posing serves no purpose. Particularly when you don't demonstrate any technique worthwhile.

7) He ridicules Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun for using slapping blocks and the lateral/adduction stance (he apparently isn't familiar with the other two stances)... and 'proving' it by having a YELLOW-BELT student, who has never learned WC/WT/VT, attempt to withstand a push (of course the student falls back) and to block a straight punch with a slapping block (of course the student doesn't succeed). Thus he 'proves' that he is right. Sometime later, he and his senior students are absent for about a week while they learn some more Tai Chi Chuan from a Wing Chun school in China. Ironic doesn't even begin to decribe it.

8) He then 'proves' that his hard block 'works' by having the same student 'block' one of his punches. 'Miraculously', the student successfully blocks the punch. Enough said.

9) When students get injured at his 'school', it's their fault for not following his instructions "exactly". When students get injured somewhere else, they must "stop" attending that school or doing whatever they were doing.

10) Did I mention that the 'school' is more like a cult than anything else? For example: he DOES NOT allow "lower belts" to observe "upper-belt" 'classes'. All students must sign a secrecy + "no-compete" section of a contract. LOL! There's nothing that I saw that isn't either published in a book that you can find in any large bookstore or on the web... for FREE!

10) He teaches a bizarre vertical fist where one 'sits' the thumb in a vertical position on the curled portion of the finger (called an appropiately 'mystical' name: "eye of the tiger). I've seen that punch before... it's a bad fist made by amateur boxers (sometimes due to bad wraps) who later get broken thumbs, when the standing thumb gets sprained or broken while bag training or sparring.

11) He brings out the now infamous myth that <Insert Boxer Name Here> only punches at "700 lbs. per sq. inch", while he punches at "2100 lbs. per sq. inch". He said, and I kid you not, that it was TYSON that punches at only 700 lbs. per sq./inch (he first makes an error and says "foot pounds" and then corrects it)! HAH! Apparently, even his ever-unquestioning horde of gi-wearing sheep seemed skeptical, because he said that it was true and that he has had his punch measured. Even IF he can punch at 2,100 lbs. per sq./inch, couldn't he have at least used a REAL measurement and not some line out of "Rocky II" (or was it "Rocky III")? I've heard variations of that line from so many karateka and kung fu practitioners that it isn't even funny. They must teach it at McDojo College to prospective McDojo instructors. BTW, just for S&G, he claims that Iron Palm practioners can inflict "30,000 lbs. per sq. inch....

Wow... I haven't even scratched the surface. So, it this one a keeper?

Phrost
8/13/2002 10:37am,
Wow, this is an old post.

Oh yeah, these guys are a keeper. If they're not listed in our Links->McDojo's section, they need to be, so we can rate them.

Remember, 1 = McDojo of all McDojos, 10 = Legit School.

Sheol
8/13/2002 4:46pm,
He's supposedly a 9th Dan in something... perhaps Bul Shi Tsu. It's a shame that civil law precludes Dojo-busting. :(

mutatron
3/19/2004 9:52pm,
No, the Wujido is not a McDojo, and yes this is an old thread. The only reason Iím responding to this is because Iím the Wujido webmaster and I see this url pop up about every other day in my referrers list.

So, caveat: Iím webmaster at the Wujido (now at http://www.wujidomartialarts.com) and of course Iím also a student there, so my opinion might be biased.

The Steven Seagal guy is gone, he was not the guy who runs the place, just a student helping with enrolling new students. But heís gone now precisely because of the kind of negative effect he had on the original author of this thread.

Iím not going to try to address everything the former student said, some of it is just personality conflict, some of it is ignorance and inexperience.

For example, the fist Dr. Harkins teaches is similar to that used in Isshin-Ryu Karate. If you think itís ďbizarreĒ well, whatever. Just donít assume you know everything there is to know about martial arts, grasshopper. ;-)

Dr. Harkins began some 35 years ago with Karate, so thatís why there are some karate-like forms in what he teaches. His idea is that it all comes from Shaolin anyway (or even Vajra Mukti if you want to go further back) and heís continually analyzing the techniques for effectiveness.

Dr. Harkins is definitely not 9th dan, since thatís a tae kwon do term.

So what do we have here in the way of evidence that Wujido is a McDojo? A guy who canít tell a student from the headmaster, a guy who criticizes techniques heís never heard of , and a guy who thinks kung fu has dans.

In this light, I think the Bullshido is aptly named.

FledglingTengu
3/19/2004 11:19pm,
It's always nice when webmasters, members, students and instructors from an actual school show up. Past instances of this occuring have proven to be very educational for both parties (see attackproof thread).


I'm sure everyone will have lots of questions for you if you're willing to hang around. I'll probably have a few of my own, as well.


Here's to a looong thread,
FledglingTengu

FledglingTengu
3/19/2004 11:43pm,
1. From your explanation of Wujiquan:
"Also taught are combat applications against multiple attackers, ground-fighting, weapons disarming techniques, and so forth, and the Meditation System of Maha-Yoga-Cara category of techniques."

Most people on this site often wonder about the kind of ground-fighting and multiple attackers curriculum that Kung Fu schools have. Could you talk a bit more about your ground fighting and what it is like?

Also, under styles, you list "Nan Di Do (Southern Ground Fighting)". I've never heard much of traditional Chinese groundfighting techniques. Could you please talk about these a bit more?

2. Also on the page, it says that "Mastering technique is a matter of years, not months or weeks. Teacher says, "It takes 10 to 15 years to master the first lesson." This is true in our experience." Many members of Bullshido are curious how soon techniques can show direct fighting application. While it may not be mastery, how long would you say it takes for a student to become a competent fighter in something like a vale tudo rules match? Do any students ever compete in a vale tudo or similar setting?

3. The previous poster who you were responding to seemed angry about contracts. Since his experiences with the school occured many years ago, I was wondering if you still use contracts now. How different is your policy from what he described?

4. The site talks a bit about how Xingyiquan is descended from Wujiquan. Could you elaborate on this?


5. In the article "Watered down Arts," the author discusses how the one-punch knockout is regarded as a myth because so called masters in the "Ultimate Fighting Championship" could not cause knockouts in one blow. Is the one punch knockout key to the Wujido system? Are all ranked "masters" in the system capable of knocking out a man in one punch in standard vale tudo rules matches, or are these just the opinions of the author?



I'm just trying to cover the type of questions commonly asked on Bullshido when a starts to be discussed. I'm sure I missed a few, but I think those are the ones most commonly asked.

Just curious, and thanks for you time,
FledglingTengu

mutatron
4/11/2004 12:26am,
Sorry to take so long getting back to the discussion. My responses have to be a bit measured, since I'm only an orange belt and I shouldn't be considered as an official spokesman for the school.

1. As for Wujiquan, Iím not in that class, Iím in Shaolin Kung Fu. Groundfighting is taught in Shaolin, but it starts at blue belt, so I havenít done it yet, and so I canít speak authoritatively on that subject.

Sparring matches between higher belts almost always go to the ground, and when they do, Dr. Harkins coaches both partners on how to get out of a hold, do a better hold, etc. No hitting is allowed once the match goes to the ground. People use joint locks or pressure points to get a tap out.

I havenít done ground fighting, but I do know several Chin Na techniques and several ways to get someone to the ground, I mean officially. Iíve been in matches where I used "creative" techniques to get someone down, but Dr. Harkins frowns on that, preferring that we practice techniques weíve learned in class.

2. As for how long it takes to be an effective fighter, that varies a lot. We get a lot of folks who come in pretty mushy, like me, who take maybe 6 to 9 months to get a yellow belt. Iíve seen others who come in ma experience already and make it to yellow belt in 2 or 3 months. Yellow belts are able to fight fairly well, certainly better than people whoíve never had martial arts. Wujido orange belts are pretty tough, somewhat powerful.

We donít have vale tudo matches, sorry. Weíre not allowed to hit to the face, weíre required to limit our power according to our belt rank. We donít stop on points, though, just fight through since nobody keeps score.

3. Still have the contracts. If thatís a big deal, there are other schools. Our prices are comparable, maybe on the high side by a bit, but our margins arenít exorbitant. Thereís no way it could be construed as a ripoff. For example, Chamberlain Studios charge $95/month. Yeah, we charge more than that, but we're worth it.

Also, we have plenty of students who came from other schools and seem plenty satisifed, having stayed on through more than one contractual period. By the way, a number of those students had achieved black belt status at their old schools and are still nowhere near that at the Wujido, though they have advanced much more quickly than I have.

4. I donít know about the wujiquan/xing yi question.

5. The article about the "one punch" was just an editorial by one of Dr. Harkinsí teachers. But if you ever get hit by Dr. Harkins, you know he could easily put you out with one punch. He knocked me down with a gentle little palm strike to the side of my jaw the other day. His accuracy is incredible. Our brown belts could definitely do a one punch ko too, but that's not emphasized, it's just a result of teaching powerful technique.