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DANINJA
11/25/2004 5:40pm,
EBMAS in Italy are planning WT tournaments-what do you guys think?:

Dear Ebmas & all families of WT friends,
I’m very happy to announce ufficially that finally there will exist in Ebmas in a short time the possibility to compete using WT techniques in dedicated sport contest.
I’ve dedicated many months on behalf of Sifu Emin to the problem of creating an efficient system of regulations.
We think that thanks to “SPORTWT” is possible to create better WT martial artist and promote the diffusion of our loved art.
I know that many people (which have big economic interest in the preservation of the actual situation of WT, where students spend a life for learn the system paying a lot for learn “secret advanced” technicques) will criticize this approach with every weapon.

To persons in good faith, who simply are told from year and years “WT is too much dangerous for sport competitions”, I’m at your disposal to answer to all your questions and doubts or critics.
Pleas just USE A VERY ELEMENTAR AND EASY ENGLISH (or Italian) LANGUAGE and be patient some time because I don’t’have much time for go internet.

Now I’d like only to tell a very important concept:We don’t’ want to change the classic WT (or better, as we call, the scientific WT): in the sport contest only “pure” technicques are valid (no jumping, no side guards, no body weight or shoulder forward…).
In a very limitated way (only 5x round) are admitted MMA (=mixed martial arts: karate, thay, judo, brazialian jiu jitsu…) attacks (not also defenses! We want use the WT original defensive strategies and techniques ) because we want prepare WT students to deal also with other style attacks: it’ important both for self defense (nobody in the streets will attack you with chatsao-punch or double punches, but they can give you a roundhouse kick or attempt a takedown) and for a future MMA participation of our fighters.

I know that the first matches will be caotical, confused, ruffled, not beautiful to watch and not good technically. This is only because in WT only few practise free sparring. There will be fights that end with a KO only for one kick in abdomen or for a knee in quadriceps, because many have never really took a hit. Ther will be athletes that finish without breath after only 20 seconds of chain punches. But after some time our level will grow enormously and we’ll become all much better than now.
A big hug, Antonio

HAVE A LOOK OF RULES ON WWW.WTMMA.COM
AND…GOOD TRAINING!

DANINJA
11/25/2004 5:42pm,
rules of sport WT(english version):

http://www.wtmma.com/ENGLISH%20internet.htm

supercrap
11/25/2004 6:03pm,
AWESOME!

Just what WT / VT / WC needs.

I hope it catches on, I really do. I may even start training WC again!

Stold3
11/25/2004 6:03pm,
"here was a time that we had a great reputation as fighters in the martial arts world; actually that’s not more true, because we have spoken too much."

"Athletes gain points scoring WT technique; instead athletes loose points when are not able to defend an opponent’s MMA attack):"

what qualifies as an mma attack?

Pojac
11/25/2004 10:29pm,
It's surely a good idea for any art that doesn't have competition to add some. But the rules and concepts proposed are bizarre. You can take a sport like boxing and say, okay, you can only use boxing techniques, because the criteria for a legal boxing technique are simple and consistent: hit above the belt, using only your gloved fists. But to say you can only use wing tsun techniques, except for mma techniques, which can only be used on offense, but only five times, except for groundwork, which can continue? You can only use wing tsun guards? You can't use boxing "blocks," but you can use boxing punches? You're allowed to hit full contact to the body but only 30% to the head? That makes some sense for sparring, but how do you judge in a competition full contact fight what percentage they're hitting at?

These rules are an absolute mess. I can't imagine being able to keep it all straight while someone's trying to hit me in the head. I also can't imagine being able to referee this effectively. Do I give some kind of a penalty if I see someone shift their weight in a way that isn't wing tsun?

supercrap
11/25/2004 10:32pm,
I have a feeling there will be an 'irnoning out' process.

Pojac
11/25/2004 10:45pm,
Hopefully. Still, I can't help but think that the logic behind all the rules is a bit flawed. Wing Tsunners are being encouraged to try a bastard sort of mma where they are supposed to use only textbook perfect, lineage approved wing tsun techniques instead of trying to get anything new out of competing. Why do this? If wing tsun turns out to actually work perfectly as is in an mma format, then students who train primarily in wing tsun won't need any artifical constraints to keep them using it. If, maybe, just maybe, some of it doesn't work so perfectly against modern mma practioners, or even against just each other in an mma format, why force them to use what isn't working....

****. This is where someone chimes in that what works in mma doesn't always work in da street, and what doesn't work in mma can work in da street, and wing tsun is for da street, so they can't be corrupted by hooks and boxing defense. Right? Forget I said anything.

manchuria
11/25/2004 10:51pm,
The techniques of sporting WT must be EXACTLY THE SAME of classic WT!!

I hope they allow for stylistic variation

manchuria
11/25/2004 10:59pm,
Pojac, are you saying internal competition is counterproductive to a styles performance in MMA? do you think BJJ should eliminate its internal competition to focus solely on MMA then?

Pojac
11/25/2004 11:20pm,
Not at all. Boxing is fine as it is, if boxing is what you like, the same for wrestling, judo, bjj, kickboxing, whatever. Each of these varies in how free the sparring is, and what sorts of techniques are legal. But these internal competitions have rational restrictions, based on either the ranges the art/sport involves, and safety conerns.

Boxing is a very limited sport (in what is permissible, not applicability), and kicks, takedowns, throws, submissions, elbows etc. are not allowed. But no attempt is made to say you must use "boxing punches," and not chain punching from wing chun or karate reverse punches. The sport is defined by its restrictions on range, target, and striking weapon: any technique that involves hitting above the waist with a glove is permissible, and everyone is free to win or lose on the merits of their training and techniques.

BJJ is a lot less limited than boxing, in that you can work in clinch and ground, and can attack the entire body. It's defined by its own rule set like boxing: you can't strike, bite, eyegouge, fish hook, etc., but can apply submission holds to essentially the entire body. There's no attempt to say that while rolling you must use only bjj submissions, and can't use judo, sambo, or catch wrestling submissions. No one will call a foul if you use a standing switch (a wrestling reversal) in a bjj match. You're free to win or lose on the merits of your techniques. If you come up with something new that works and fits the format of submission grappling, not only should you be allowed to use it, you should be encouraged to use it, so the technique spreads and everyone gains.

MMA is the least restrictive, with no limit on ranges or either striking or grappling, only safety limits such as eye gouging, nut shots. To have MMA competitions where in a sense you are more restrictred than either boxing or grappling, where you can only use specific wing tsun techniques, seems counterproductive. I think I explained why pretty reasonably in my previous post.

manchuria
11/25/2004 11:54pm,
Lets put aside for a moment why people do wing chun, the fact is they do knowingly and willingly, thus forming a very idiosyncratic martial arts community of their own which would be great to see in full contact competition, only right now their options seem to be limited at two extremes: playing chisao in their kwoon and going and training/fighting in a completely alien environment which is oriented to and dominated by other styles. Wing chun competition would provide a base where fighters could become accustomed to harder combat (and different techniques are allowed, just in very limited numbers from what I read) and then move upwards into less restricted rulesets, something which right now there is NO incentive for them to do whatsoever.

JKing
11/26/2004 12:26am,
I like the guys thinking... lets apply WT in both full and light contact competitions so that more people will push themselves to be able to use WT in a realistic scenario (also hold up against full contact fighters who keep owning them).

There have been times I myself (being in a traditional style) have wanted to do some sort of "our style's techniques only" sparring. The fact is though that it would be really hard to do that. It would be ten times harder to base a circut around that idea. The rules need heavy revision (and grammar check).

Jonny
11/26/2004 8:57am,
I think that this is a great idea. The guy has identified some of the problems with WT and come up with a possible solution. If the rules were tidied up a bit, this could be very useful.

BTW, what are the cervicals?

Jonny

DANINJA
11/26/2004 9:11am,
I think the rules are still provisional as Antonio has only just published them for discussion.

PoleFighter
11/26/2004 9:18am,
dear lord..

Jekyll
11/26/2004 9:40am,
Personaly I think that boxers using a both arms to absorb a cross is a good use of centre line theory.

It would be easier to fight under san shou/thai boxing/MMA rules, to make the event only open to wingchun practioners with sufficent experience and to allow the judges to give discretionary points for conformity to style.