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Bang!
11/18/2004 1:44pm,
For whatever reason, we've been working a bunch of stand-up joint locks in class lately. For the sake of training, we've been using them as ways to move the other person, but I'm not crazy about this approach.

In the context of actual application, it seems like I'd be better off just snapping these things on and going for instant damage. In any case, I know that JJJ people do a lot of similar stuff and was wondering what the standard approach (i.e. submitting vs. good ole breaking ****) is.

Judah Maccabee
11/18/2004 2:00pm,
*note* I'm not a JJJ practioner

Depending on the circumstance, breaking something could put you at a significant legal liability. If a soccer dad starts jabbing you in the chest with his index finger, you can't break a digit or a limb because he technically assaulted you.

On the other hand, putting him in a joint lock and embarassing him has no legal recourse. :)

Bang!
11/18/2004 2:02pm,
I'm not worried about defending myself on the corner of Glass St. and Lava Ave. That's what kicks to the nuts are for. I just want an alternative viewpoint on application.

fernando
11/18/2004 3:06pm,
how much resistance are you using with your training partner?

are you isolating the move or drill?

MaverickZ
11/18/2004 3:11pm,
most of the stand up grappling we do at my school involves tying the person up and/or throwing them on the ground, not too many stand up limb destruction. so mostly throws and pain compliance.

Ronin
11/18/2004 3:18pm,
you are refering to "come alongs" ?

Bang!
11/18/2004 4:35pm,
Yes, of the jointlock variety. I'm distinguishing because your phrasing reminds me of a story about Ed Parker and co. Word has it that, when they would hold MA tournaments back in the day, there would always be a few big yahoos that would start **** up. Parker's guys would "escort" them to the door using a variation of the elementary teacher-style earlobe tug. In this case, however, they would grab the other guy's nipple and lead him out. According to what I heard, it really didn't matter how big the other guy was; he would follow.

Bang!
11/18/2004 4:58pm,
I just wanted to get a second opinion on the use of standing locks for control, leading, etc.

Te No Kage!
11/18/2004 5:21pm,
I've always been taught that you have a choice. Really, outside of the dojo, you have the choice of submitting somebody, making them move, or outright breaking the limb. For me, it depends on how bad they pissed me off. In Aikido, the leading is usually done to make them face down on the floor and you lead them toward their point of imbalance.

Kinzei
11/18/2004 11:21pm,
I agree with Te No Kage. Also, sanding locks can also be transition techniques in either throws or multiple break options.

katana
11/19/2004 12:20am,
From my experience, standing joint locks for controlling someone really only work on people who don't want to fight back, are much weaker than you, or are too drunk to do anything about it. For controlling a person really fighting to get away they are pretty low percentage unless done to perfection. Even ignoring the basic fact that getting solid control of a person's joint while both of you are standing and resisting is hard, the person has too much of their body left out of your control (i.e. all the other parts connected to the wrist that you don't have locked up). This means they can usually flail around and muscle their way out or hit you with their free hand while you're tied up trying to control them.

I dunno. If you have to learn them as part of your class you should. But be sure to have your partner really put up a good fight so you can see the limitations first hand.

Antagony
11/19/2004 2:46am,
I agree with katana. I trained standing joint locks and was never able to apply them in ANY kind of sparring situation. But then again, I wasn't really a JOINT LOCK MASTER either. Take that as you will.

If you need a hint on interpreting what I said, here it is: I don't train standing joint locks anymore.

TaeBo_Master
11/19/2004 3:45am,
I'll face **** the hell out of you PizDoff.

Gezere
11/19/2004 6:19am,
Get a room guys! :love8:

RM,

I agree with Ronin it sounds like you are doing COME ALONGS, Gene Lebell have some good ones.


From my experience, standing joint locks for controlling someone really only work on people who don't want to fight back, are much weaker than you, or are too drunk to do anything about it. For controlling a person really fighting to get away they are pretty low percentage unless done to perfection. Even ignoring the basic fact that getting solid control of a person's joint while both of you are standing and resisting is hard, the person has too much of their body left out of your control (i.e. all the other parts connected to the wrist that you don't have locked up). This means they can usually flail around and muscle their way out or hit you with their free hand while you're tied up trying to control them.

There are different "levels" so to speak for come alongs. The idea is to entice the person to move not force him. If that doesn't work you can escalate the technique (mainly simple adding pressure, or twisting a certain way)to make him move if he wants to or not. These are more 'policing' skills than done for a full on confrintation.

Ronin
11/19/2004 7:41am,
Like the dark overlord said, they are more "policing" techniques than they are "fighting" techniques.
I have used them while bouncing, some work well, others are ****.
The best ones are the ones that put you OUT of range or opposite the free limb, perferably behind the opponent.
They are very hard to do on a person that is much heavier/stronger than you, and forget them if he is on drugs.

Like all techniques, they have their place.

WingChun Lawyer
11/19/2004 7:49am,
Sorry, what do you guys mean by "policing" techniques? Applicable only on non resisting opponents?