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Freddy
11/03/2004 7:23pm,
What do others think?
Do they have the same power?
Is one faster than the other in terms of multiple strikes?
Is one faster than the other in terms of single strikes?

:3some:

supercrap
11/03/2004 7:38pm,
Have to clear a few things up first.

Take boxer 1, and boxer 2. Do they have the exact same strength punch?

How bout WC guy 1 and WC guy 2, do they have the exact same strength punch?

Don't think so. How long have they been training? What do they weigh? Etc. Etc.

This comparison is very biased.

I used to train with a very tough boxer from New Zealand. Initially he was skeptical about wing chun punching, having knocked out Tom Dick and Harry with a right cross. Bumped into him a few days ago and he was extolling the virtues of the Wing Chun punch, even said that his boxer friends came over from New Zealand and they too were blown away by the speed and power he could generate, and especially by the fact that it did not take a large body movement.

EDIT: Further evidence! A good friend of mine, and a professional fighter in the UK, Dave Nicolosi, (http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=7907) (his sherdog record needs updating... one more win! ) came to stay with me recently. After much training and discussion, he ended up adapting his cross to a vertical fist, wing chun cross, using rotation of the body rather than twisting and leaning, and declared it much more stable and much more powerful than his cross as it was before. This guy also had many years of Amateur boxing under his belt. He currently trains jiu jutsu, wrestling and kickboxing, but was totally open to any other way of thinking that could benefit him, and it turns out that Wing Chun did just that.


I really have only one thing to say on the matter. To use the wing chun punch correctly, you need an in depth understanding and ability in the following areas: Relaxation, structure, and intention. WITHOUT THESE YOUR PUNCH WILL BE USELESS. Now, I hate to be blunt and fan the flames of the WC Lineage wars, but in my experience, most schools have NO IDEA about these three things. I have seen 4 seperate families of Wing Chun, and only ONE could do these things correctly and generate real, controlled, appliable force. Unfortunately, its true - the reason that there are so many lame wing chun video clips out there is that there are so many lame wing chun schools. End of fucking story. In a good school, you'll find people that can punch hard and fast. In a crappy school, which unfortunately accounts for around 90% of schools, you'll find a bunch of slap happy fucktards that couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

Traditional Tom
11/03/2004 8:00pm,
As I'm currently in Boxing, I have to say
"boxing pwns you!!exlamation!!"

That being said, I have no idea what this 'chain punching' is, but if combined with chain smoking, it sounds like it could be a force to be reckoned with.

Jenfucius
11/03/2004 9:04pm,
my friend who is a WC teacher punched me in the face pretty hard a few times when i started

Jolly_Roger
11/03/2004 9:54pm,
my friend who is a WC teacher punched me in the face pretty hard a few times when i started

Ah. I had always asumed that lump on your face was your nose.
Pardonez-moi.

Bizzaro Root
11/03/2004 10:29pm,
if you want to know the right way to punch watch a boxer,

and anyone could tell you they rotate ther hips when punching, leaning into a punch is retarded. not to mention any maertuer boxer would never punch like that.

supercrap
11/03/2004 10:36pm,
Any mistake about boxers technique is due to ignorance on my part. However there is clearly a lot more gross body movements in a boxer's punch than in a WC punch.

I am more than willing to be corrected on my description of a boxers punch.

I like the way my post is ignored though, because it doesn't fit into the accepted 'wing chun is useless' mold. :-/

liuzg150181
11/03/2004 10:44pm,
Boxing, as far as my MT and sanda encounters are concerned,dont lean to punch,plain retarded~~~
The side which the punch is executed,the same foot is also pivoted~~~
And what's the difference btw twisting and rotating (the body)?
Almost all MA is about 'relaxation, structure, and intention(this i am not sure)'

Bizzaro Root
11/03/2004 10:47pm,
i didnt ignore your post just didnt quote it.

first boxers only punch in training where as wc does vast amounts of stand up. boxers have 100 solid years of 100's of thousands of figthers and trainers behind there science. wc has Yip man(chain punching) and Tai-Gip(faster than light punching) joke. boxers have countless names of fighters who threw perfect punchess.

point is the prefected it no not all boxers are perfect punchers but the system itself is perfect because of its evolution. im not dissing wc i see it as an efective striking art but for pure punching you takes the cake.

supercrap
11/03/2004 10:56pm,
We've established that my saying boxers lean is retarded. Get over it.

Twisting implies that the structure is being twisted, that perhaps the shoulders will turn further than the waist.

Rotating means the whole structure rotates around a point.

Just forget about my inadequate description of boxing for a moment please and move onto a real discussion...

Yes all martial arts are about those things. relaxation, structure, and intention.But in my experience, it is only in Wing chun that these things are refined to such a degree. You are expected to be able to perform any movement from the form with somebody applying full resistance to you.

So imagine if you had to practice your MT leg kicks, but someone hand their arms on your knee resisting you right from the beginning. Could you still kick powerfully, or would you find that as you moved, you upset your own balance and could not generate any power without room to wind-up? This is about structure and relaxation. With a good structure and highly refined relaxation, you can kick / punch / whatever, no matter if someone is trying to stop you. Even without a lot of room to move or generate kinetic energy, you can still move straight through the resistance.

EDIT: I'm not trying to say WC punches are better, really. I am just trying to explain that they need not be counted out just because the majority of the population can't do them properly. The point I was trying to make was that with a bit of understanding of structure, he found he could improve his cross slightly.

I may not be able to describe boxing very well but I am well aware of how hard and well they punch.

liuzg150181
11/03/2004 11:12pm,
We've established that my saying boxers lean is retarded. Get over it.

Twisting implies that the structure is being twisted, that perhaps the shoulders will turn further than the waist.

Rotating means the whole structure rotates around a point.

Just forget about my inadequate description of boxing for a moment please and move onto a real discussion...
Or your inadequate understanding of it.


Yes all martial arts are about those things. relaxation, structure, and intention.But in my experience, it is only in Wing chun that these things are refined to such a degree. You are expected to be able to perform any movement from the form with somebody applying full resistance to you.

So imagine if you had to practice your MT leg kicks, but someone hand their arms on your knee resisting you right from the beginning. Could you still kick powerfully,[quote]
But in the first place would i execute a MT roundhouse with such proximity?
Though there would be a push kick(MT and sanda at least) to my knee-area to upset my kick and balance.
[quote]
or would you find that as you moved, you upset your own balance and could not generate any power without room to wind-up?
No.


This is about structure and relaxation. With a good structure and highly refined relaxation, you can kick / punch / whatever, no matter if someone is trying to stop you. Even without a lot of room to move or generate kinetic energy, you can still move straight through the resistance.
One Sanda guy i saw can do that.


EDIT: I'm not trying to say WC punches are better, really. I am just trying to explain that they need not be counted out just because the majority of the population can't do them properly. The point I was trying to make was that with a bit of understanding of structure, he found he could improve his cross slightly.

I may not be able to describe boxing very well but I am well aware of how hard and well they punch.
Okay......

supercrap
11/03/2004 11:25pm,
I agree that you would not execute such a kick in this proximity. But think of this as worst case scenario training. If after a year or so, you could kick no matter if someone was resisting you right from the start. Then when you do have the room to wind up, it's like a luxury, and others will find it very difficult to stop your strikes.

Not sure what you meant by 'no'? Have you ever tried this exercise? Have someone put both hands on your knee and push against it as you try to kick. It is difficult because it means your structure has to be very good and you can only rely on yourself and your mechanics to do the movement, not speed or weight or momentum. If your structure is no good, you won't even be able to lift your knee up.

liuzg150181
11/03/2004 11:33pm,
I agree that you would not execute such a kick in this proximity. But think of this as worst case scenario training. If after a year or so, you could kick no matter if someone was resisting you right from the start. Then when you do have the room to wind up, it's like a luxury, and others will find it very difficult to stop your strikes.
That;s what the varieties of kicks are for.

Not sure what you meant by 'no'? Have you ever tried this exercise? Have someone put both hands on your knee and push against it as you try to kick. It is difficult because it means your structure has to be very good and you can only rely on yourself and your mechanics to do the movement, not speed or weight or momentum. If your structure is no good, you won't even be able to lift your knee up.[/QUOTE]
By 'no' i i am referring to your bits about "or would you find that as you moved, you upset your own balance and could not generate any power without room to wind-up?".
Nice exercise you mention,shall try it today~~~

grond
11/03/2004 11:43pm,
i didnt ignore your post just didnt quote it.

first boxers only punch in training where as wc does vast amounts of stand up. boxers have 100 solid years of 100's of thousands of figthers and trainers behind there science. wc has Yip man(chain punching) and Tai-Gip(faster than light punching) joke. boxers have countless names of fighters who threw perfect punchess.

point is the prefected it no not all boxers are perfect punchers but the system itself is perfect because of its evolution. im not dissing wc i see it as an efective striking art but for pure punching you takes the cake.

Boxing has a better lineage than VT?

supercrap
11/03/2004 11:46pm,
Cool, let me know the results.

I appreciate what you mean, that you would not kick this way in this position, you would use another more appropriate kick.

But I am approaching it from a different way - developing a way of moving that you can apply to any kick or punch or whatever.

Again, it comes down to developing structure, staying relaxed (this doesn't mean floppy) and developing intention... See this thread for a good explanation of intention... http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15755&highlight=intention

That's how I saw my Wing Chun, as developing these three attributes and applying them to any / all movements.

liuzg150181
11/03/2004 11:52pm,
So how should it be pressed by the partner? Just on the knees?