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Xango
10/03/2004 6:07pm,
There has always been a lot of talk of BJJ vs Judo, for the obvious reason that (as sports) they are both practiced in gi and come from the same root, namely Judo. I think most of us would also agree that, sport-wise, the rules of BJJ and IJF Judo favor the skills emphasized in each of these styles.

So I'm moving a thread to here from judoforum on a simplified ruleset that is designed as a relatively neutral forum for Judoka and BJJ players to test their skills. Sambo can come too.

The ruleset should be simple enough to fit on one sheet of paper, preferably without double-siding. Here's what we have so far:

1. Wear a standard Judogi or Kimono

2. All non-grappling tricks are prohibited (we need to define these).

3. A submission shall be counted as victory, said submission achieved through any lock or choke (exceptions for: twisting knee locks? neck cranks? certainly limited submissions for beginners...again, something to discuss.).

4. It shall also be counted as victory to throw the opponent onto their back with force and control, when you shall yourself remain standing.

5. It shall be counted as a victory to throw the opponent onto their back, with force and control, when you accompany your opponent to the ground (such as makikomi and sacrifice throws), provided that you transition cleanly to a pin and hold the pin for 5 seconds.

6. For the first 5 minutes of the match (10 minutes for master-class competition), no pin shall be counted as a victory, save by rule 5. After that, a 30 second pin shall count as victory, where a pin is any valid judo pin plus: full rear mount with hooks in, rear mount with the opponent on their stomach and their legs stretched out, or reverse rear mount where the head is north-south and the player's weight is on top of the opponent.

7. The referee shall not stop ground action except for medical reasons or fouls, etc. If the edge of the arena is reached, the referee may move the players to the center and have them resume in the same position. Crawling out of the area of competition to escape a submission shall not stop the action unless the submission is escaped, in which case the action is restarted as per earlier.

8. If a player stands entirely clear of his opponent, without being controlled in any way, he may oblige his opponent to stand.

What do you think? I've PMed Kozushi, who has a lot to say on this subject, so he can participate if he desires.

Roidie McDouchebag
10/03/2004 6:12pm,
Sounds ok to me and fair to all styles involved.

Antagony
10/03/2004 6:19pm,
Yeah, I like that!

Roidie McDouchebag
10/03/2004 7:14pm,
It'd be cool to have a tourney with these rules and see what happens.

Xango
10/03/2004 7:37pm,
That'd be swank. Adopt the Judo weightclasses and go to town. We'd need a 'rulebook' version of the rules that specifies the boring stuff like what a regulation gi actually is, size of the competition area (I say use standard judo mats), how many refs, details of weigh-in and all that; but I really want everything you need to know during the actual fight to fit on a piece of paper with a reasonably sized font.

Time limits? Ten for lower division and twenty for upper, with no time limits on medal-deciding matches? Draws count as a draw, that's no problem in double-elimination.

Probably not super-exciting to watch if you're not a fan, but hey, curling does okay, and so does golf.

Xango
10/03/2004 7:44pm,
Kozushi has this to add (no account on Bullshido at present):

"Rule 8 should have the competitors re-started, standing facing each other, in the centre (good idea by the way!.
Rule 5 we ought to refine a bit. The whole point of executing a throw (if it is not just done to get at a good position for submission) is to achieve victory by smashing the opponent's body into pieces on a hard floor. To win by just a 'throw' plus a short pin doesn't really prove anything in itself. The win by throw ought to be like it was in the early days of the Kodokan: a CRUSHING huge throw that would injure the person if it were done on a hard floor instead of on a mat. I sometimes can pull off throws like this on people, and sometimes they can pull them off on me. For example, a few weeks ago, a guy did a HUGE Ura Nage throw on me, and I nearly BOUNCED off the mat on my back! If it were cement, I'd be either injured or have the wind quite knocked out of me (making me very vulnerable for anything else that would happen.) Last week, in MMA class, I grabbed a guy who was punching at me and did a HUGE Harai Goshi, landed on top of him, and he looked like he was going to puke. I think that these are the kinds of throws we should award the victory to: if you want to demand a short pin afterwards, then this is good too: to show control for theoretical pounding with knees, forearms or fists; but my point is that it's the huge throws like these that we must count, not the sissy kind that they accept in IJF tourneys.

By the way, I think your rules are THE RULES we need. Good job! These rules ought to replace both Judo and BJJ rules.

The idea of quickly ending the match after the time has elapsed by counting 30 second pins as victories is absolutely fair (since it awards victory to the guy who is in the better position vis a vis striking), and the ideal way to solve the problem of 'what if no one scores a throw or sub in the allotted time, since we don't have all day?'. However, I think that to be fair to the competitors, the match should be re-started when the allotted time runs out, and the competitors can thereby intentionally fight for position. If we don't re-start them, then you'll have guys hold down their opponents at the very start of the match and just keep holding them there for the full five minutes, waiting for the 30 second pin rule to come into effect. Restarting them at the 5 minute mark means that you don't have to be paranoid about being on the bottom during the match's regular time, and the fight can be a pure 'submissions grappling' fight without any worries about positioning: it will be raw full-out sub fighting."

I like his points about 5 and 8 and am not sure what I think about restarting the match for position. What do you think?

JohnnyS
10/03/2004 8:06pm,
I don't like the 30 second pin rule. There's a big difference between holding someone down to pin them, controlling the person to finish them, and controlling the person to strike them. You stated that a 30 second pin would mean win because you could strike, but as soon as you release the pin to strike there is space for the guy to escape.

Apart from this, the rules sound okay, but I can see points for and against your rules. For example, I've been thrown in a subsmission grappling competition by a good Judo guy but 5 seconds he was tapping from an armbar. I do however like the idea of doing the throw and remaining standing as a means of victory.

The problem with competitions is that when you have very skilled competitors they cancel out each others attacks, so new rules are brought in to help determine a winner if there is no clear victory, hence advantages in BJJ and koka in Judo. These are of course subject to the referees discretion and so there is always contraversy. I think both arts are too far down their path with their own philosphies about fighting (and hence their rules), for any new set of rules to be agreeable to both parties.

Sorry for being such a downer :)

Xango
10/03/2004 8:33pm,
Originally posted by JohnnyS
I don't like the 30 second pin rule. There's a big difference between holding someone down to pin them, controlling the person to finish them, and controlling the person to strike them. You stated that a 30 second pin would mean win because you could strike, but as soon as you release the pin to strike there is space for the guy to escape.

Apart from this, the rules sound okay, but I can see points for and against your rules. For example, I've been thrown in a subsmission grappling competition by a good Judo guy but 5 seconds he was tapping from an armbar. I do however like the idea of doing the throw and remaining standing as a means of victory.


The pins are introduced after 5 minutes (or 10 at your leve) to provide a tie-breaker, rather than strictly because of superior position vis-a-vis striking and submission both...which is, IIRC, the philosophy behind the BJJ point system, which awards points for each of the holds considered a 'pin' in this case.

As for the throws...the 'force and control' heavy throws in Judo are plenty to KTFO just about anyone on a reasonably hard surface. No one wants to award victory for a crappy double-leg trip that doesn't go thud. :) Leaving out the broken glass and lava...would you have been armbarring that guy on concrete or hardwood?

Your point about people investing in their sport is valid, this isn't likely to dent Olympic Judo. But by including the favored wins from both camps you are more likely to attract people from both camps, and by applying less rule-based selection pressure than in either you just might produce a better fighter.

Osiris seems to have the correct on prohibited moves, if wristlocks are counted part of SJM (hair-pulling and fishooking were no doubt accidentally excluded). I'm fairly adamant that heel hooks and twisting neck cranks don't belong in lower grappling divisions, but can't think of other submissions that should be prohibited for safety.

Kozushi
10/03/2004 8:51pm,
Yes, the whole point of introducing the pins is really only to supply a tie-breaker. We will need to do this if we want to run real tourneys. If we let the matches go on all day (which I'm sure many of them would), we would never get through all the competitors. Both Judo and BJJ pretty much agree that the positions named above in the rules as 'pins' are worth giving points to. To make it fair, we should re-start the two in the centre after the 5 or 10 minute limit, before putting the 30 second pin rule into effect.
The above criticism of allowing a win with a throw fails for two reasons:
1. In order to score, the throw must be of such a kind that if it were on cement, it would injure the thrown.
2. The thrower must keep a position of control for 5 seconds after the throw (i.e. the thrown is kept under control and has not been able to riposte with a joint-lock or choke.)

I think these rules are very good, and we ought to start a tourney right away.

Xango
10/03/2004 9:28pm,
Nope, ippon stays because ippon is awesome. If you don't want to get thrown, take the fucker down. You know that takedowns are higher percentage than high-amplitude throws anyway. The idea behind ippon is to give a competition that Judo players will also like, while allowing BJJ people all the ground time they need to win their way. A mat should be thick enough to prevent injury from a throw that would completely wind and quite possibly break someone in real life: tatami would have prevented an accidental TKO I delivered at the last Throwdown where we were on dirt, and most fight surfaces in urban life are harder.

Pins are less lame than a judge's decision, and 30 second pins win Judo matches all the time. Thing is, as long as you're in one of the dominant positions you can transition to any hold you want. Side control to mount to northsouth to rear northsouth to rear mount. That's not at all a ridiculous thing to do for 30 seconds.

I'm down with the idea of submission-only randori, no time limit. In fact it's what I prefer at this point. For a competition, introducing a few more elements to make it exciting, keep the pace up and resolve stalemate is important.

This is why I brought this to Bullshido; this is where you take things martial when you want people to hammer on them and see if they hold up. :)

Hello Kozushi! Welcome aboard.

Blad3
10/03/2004 10:35pm,
Xango I have clips of people getting thrown on to concrete and landing on their heads then standing up straight away - a throw/slam to the ground doesn't necessarilly mean a KO. So I'd say JohnnyS would have won that on concrete or not. But you don't know until you've seen it. That's besides the fact that if it was on concrete JohnnyS would have most likely been more careful - he would have pulled guard/fallen to the floor lightly if he thought he was definitely going to get thrown, significantly reducing the impact, but then you don't know. Then that's besides the fact that he is an MMAist and probably would have KTFO of the Judoka anyway :P THEN that's besides the fact that they wouldn't be wearing GI's and johnnyS is an MMAist and better at No-gi/wrestling maybe and would have got the takedown himself more than likely :P

Pinning and winning is ridiculous in some ways - just being held isn't usually going to win you anything - you need to apply a finishing move. However I suppose it means the bottom guy has to be more active in his escapes...

Xango
10/03/2004 10:52pm,
Pinning and winning is a tie-breaker! <----- Read this if you are skimming the thread!

I could continue to justify ippon throws as self-defense, and indeed probably will come morning. The fact is, I think they should be included because otherwise you won't see them and the game would lose something. There's no glory in single legs, shots, and the occasional hip throw or trip; if that's all you ever saw in Judo, it'd be a sad thing. There are tons of reasons why putting the really big throw on someone is a good skill to have, and why allowing that to happen to you should be unacceptable.

Allowing ippon throws means you have two games, standing and ground. Not registering takedowns means you have only one game, the ground, with an initial transition to determine position (also known as 'guard pulling'). I think it would make a more exciting competition, attract more players, and teach a valuable fighting skill which would otherwise be neglected.

Thaiboxerken
10/03/2004 10:58pm,
Why not just have them fight under MMA rules?

Xango
10/03/2004 10:59pm,
Also, if I read JohnnyS correctly, he would have won by this ruleset. Throw followed by armbar doesn't sound like a standing throw with force and control, or a falling throw with a clean pin. It sounds like a throw that took them both down, with JohnnyS underneath but able to apply an armbar.

I don't want to reward featherlight drop seio nages and pathetic rollovers, I want to reward throws where you have to have someone else explain what happened because you're still a bit dazed...

Xango
10/03/2004 11:00pm,
Originally posted by Thaiboxerken
Why not just have them fight under MMA rules?

What?

How would that be grappling?

Roidie McDouchebag
10/04/2004 12:04am,
tbken is trolling.

I like Kozushi's rules.