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SamHarber
1/06/2003 8:43am,
Chi is a concept made up of lies and falsehood. What you need is something reliable and proveable, such as rings that give you IMMORTALITY.
http://www.alexchiu.com/ can give you immortality, and if you're not satisfied, he offers a 90 days refund offer.
http://www.alexchiu.com/ is the way of the future.
The future is bright, the future is Alex Chui.

silentdog
1/06/2003 9:27am,
lol

from the testimonials section:



I've had an increase in energy, well-being, and I am pretty sure my IQ has gone up 10-20 points. That's just an estimate, but I feel A LOT smarter. Answers to problems and questions come easier, and I feel more creative.

fights_like_girl
1/06/2003 10:25am,
I really don't know about this one. something's fishy.

grandloupmechant
1/06/2003 10:46am,
Hi guys, i'm a newbie here. What do you think of the MAs which are chi based ? So if you all say that chi is only bullshit, how do you explain that acupuncture works ??!!
I'm not picking up a fight to defend my practice (taichi) but i think you forgot to take some info into account. Using chi during combat I assumed is impossible unless you become able not to intellectualize you're fight. If someone can use needle to influence my body ?? How does it work ? What is the process of this stuff ?? I mean a martial artist has got to be careful with all the **** people tell us out there to make money but he should anyway keep an hear and an eye on everything.
Anyway i want my immortality ring so i'm going.

SamHarber
1/06/2003 11:22am,
Welcome to the land of cynics and doubters.
The two arts I currently practice are Aikido and Sun style taiji, but I don't subscribe to the mystical chi explanation for why these arts work. Despite this, I'm still on the left wing liberal side of the debate compared to some of our resident Chi nazi's (Hi Wastrel!). As for why acupuncture works, I don't know, I've never tried it, but I think I'd happily tell someone I'm cured if only he'll stop sticking pins in me.
Enjoy your time here, defend your corner and what you believe. Otherwise there won't be any fun arguments.

Alex Chiu for President!

Mr. Donkeypenis
1/06/2003 11:40am,
Quote: "So if you all say that chi is only bullshit, how do you explain that acupuncture works ??!! "

Because it doesn't.

A.K.A MEAT

The Wastrel
1/06/2003 12:19pm,
Second that. Acupuncture doesn't work. It does not provide the health benefits to you that it is claimed to have. The problem here is that the arguments for acupuncture will follow the same pattern as those for qi, and eventually somebody will be arguing that acupuncture works because it verifiably relaxes you, and that's important for healing. But that is NOT the totality of claims for acupuncture. Before you tell us it works, why don't you tell us how YOU think it works.
Sam: Nazi? Hey! I think I put up the most respectful argument against qi that I' ve seen on this board yet. ;)

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

KC Elbows
1/06/2003 12:32pm,
Wastrel,
You've put yourself in a spot there. Accupuncture has had success in the lab, including as an anasthetic. Now, big claims are bull, but there has not only been success, but in western labs as well as in it's home country.

Whether the reason aspects of accupuncture work is chi or simple physiology does not change the fact that aspects of it have been found to work. How it works is secondary to does it work, and research suggests it does.

And that's why you're a nazi. ;) Just kidding.

CrimsonTiger
1/06/2003 12:55pm,
I have to second KC on this one. I don't believe it's "qi" that's being "freed and circulated" that causes acupuncture to work. But I HAVE seen/experienced it's positive effects.

HOWEVER, there are still crackpot claims that bother me. The Sifu that does the acupuncture and taichi (and qi gong) that I've witnessed has this nasty tendency to promise the world. For simple things like improving asthma, skin conditions, shortening healing times, etc. he seems very effective. But when he tells cancer patients to go off their medication because it's affecting their qi...THAT bothered me.

I think with time acupuncture will have its place, but it'll be much more reasonable than many currently claim it should have.

And Wastrel's not a Nazi. He's just American. (UH OH! *ducks and covers*)

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

"You sure talk a lot. Are you going to train at all tonight, or just stand there the whole time?" -Sempai Dale

I Give BJJs
1/06/2003 12:58pm,
I've had accupuncture done to remove blood clots around injuries. It gets the blood flowing to the damaged area again, which promotes faster healing. Certainly not magical, but not entirely BS either.

Greese
1/06/2003 1:24pm,
I think acupuncture is physiological, which is why it works. Chi is mystical, which is why it does not work.

Kempocos
1/06/2003 1:42pm,
Chi as explained in the mystic sense was the way to explain the bio electric impulses the brain use to communicate to muscle in a time of limited science. Like a car engine that is tuned and aligned correctly can produce maximum horsepower, the body staying loose, correct form and reathing during a technique can produce maximum power and speed. I am not saying super power just the max the body can produce according to the condition of the person. Now using chi to knockout people without touching or yelling a kiai I have trouble believing. I train vital point/joint manipulation as a way to target the best area to attack.

EAT SLEEP TRAIN

Kempocos
1/06/2003 1:43pm,
reathing = breathing .... oops

EAT SLEEP TRAIN

The Wastrel
1/06/2003 2:01pm,
Hey look, that's fine. But my point has never been that certain advantages can't be had from Taiji, or that things that qi is meant to explain can't be observed. Neither do I think that I stepped into anything KC. The problem is that TCM cannot separate truth from fact without the intervention of scientific reasoning. When the "lab" discovers certain health benefits related to acupuncture, that's not a triumph for TCM, that's a triumph for science. Do you see what I mean? One of the problems is that the most prominent representatives are the ones making the crackpot claims.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

KC Elbows
1/06/2003 2:05pm,
You only stepped in it when you said 'accupuncture doesn't work'. But you are correct, real explanations need to be sought out.

I Give BJJs
1/06/2003 2:16pm,
KC calling someone else a nazi.......that's rich!!!