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Rigante
8/24/2004 11:44pm,
I just heard on the news about a phone conversation last weekend Kerry had with one of his commanding officers during his Vietnam tour. Kerry called and asked him to come out in support of him against the swift boat members. The former C.O. said "John I am one of them". After a short pause Kerry asks "why are you doing this to me?" C.O.'s reply is "because you called us war criminals!". Kerry - "I didnt mean all of you". C.O. - "Thats not good enough".

So Kerry's past has caught up with him. Was he right in calling Vietnam veterans war criminals when he knew many of them were not? You decide.

Kungfoolss
8/25/2004 12:10am,
Originally posted by Rigante
I just heard on the news about a phone conversation last weekend Kerry had with one of his commanding officers during his Vietnam tour. Kerry called and asked him to come out in support of him against the swift boat members. The former C.O. said "John I am one of them". After a short pause Kerry asks "why are you doing this to me?" C.O.'s reply is "because you called us war criminals!". Kerry - "I didnt mean all of you". C.O. - "Thats not good enough".


Read the Drudge report ->

KERRY PHONES SWIFT BOAT FOES

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc98.htm



So Kerry's past has caught up with him. Was he right in calling Vietnam veterans war criminals when he knew many of them were not? You decide.


kerry's new lie...I mean line- "I wasn't smearing the swifties, but those other guys in Vietnam..."

Balloonknot
8/25/2004 8:09am,
Yeah, Drudge report! Drudge isn't a bit partisan either. LOL.

People, get over this because it's not even news anymore. Kerry will still win you cry babies!!

Rigante
8/25/2004 8:13am,
My info wasnt from the drudge report it was national TV news. Kerry has made the mistake of opening up some wounds that have been been forgotten for over 30 years, he will have to answer to those now. This no right wing conspiracy unless you consider all the Vietnam vets right wing conspirators!

PeedeeShaolin
8/25/2004 8:32am,
At last I'm proven right!

I said this was the reason for their attack from the VERY START!

People who shot people in war and then get medals for it want to hold on to that accomlishment and are pissed that Kerry had the integrity(at the time) to say what he felt was right. Thats the greatest crime against your country; speaking your mind.

We all know that Vietnam was a USELESS war that NOTHING was gained from. There was NO reason to fight there and every one of those soldiers died for nothing far from home.

Watch "The Fog of War".

Robert McNamara states, point blank, that he considers himself a war criminal.

Did you read that correctly? How the **** are you going to argue about war facts and reasons for invasion with the damn Secretary of Defense?

Don't you think the guy who made gave the nod to send in reserve troops and expand our military in Vietnam might just know more about the reasoning behind it than most other people?

Watch the interview. The guy is old and he wanted to clear his mind on the matter.

Very powerful stuff.

punchingdummy
8/25/2004 8:36am,
Originally posted by Rigante
My info wasnt from the drudge report it was national TV news. Kerry has made the mistake of opening up some wounds that have been been forgotten for over 30 years, he will have to answer to those now. This no right wing conspiracy unless you consider all the Vietnam vets right wing conspirators!

Kerry "reporting for duty" at the DNC was a blunder. He would have been better off running on his domestic policies and opposition to Bush's foreign policy alone. But now he's running on HIS military experience...some good, but overall a significant liability (at least in the way he positioned himself).

punchingdummy
8/25/2004 8:39am,
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
People who shot people in war and then get medals for it want to hold on to that accomlishment and are pissed that Kerry had the integrity(at the time) to say what he felt was right. Thats the greatest crime against your country; speaking your mind.


He had a right to speak his mind. People have a right to judge him for what he said.

There is a hell of a difference between being in opposition to a war and trashing the drafties who were sent to fight it. If the Hanoi John label sticks through November, he will loose the election.

PeedeeShaolin
8/25/2004 8:47am,
There is a hell of a difference between being in opposition to a war and trashing the drafties who were sent to fight it.

He didn;t trash the servicemen though, I'd like to see a quote or article where he's done that.

All he did was say the war was unjust and that alot of atrocities were going on there. We know this to be true today.

If Robert McNamara can be a man and state that the U.S. actions in Vietnam, and by association his own, were crimes why can't Kerry say the same?

If a Nazi foot soldier was to say his COMBET operations were wrong(nothing to do with camps or anything) he would be correct. The Nazis invaded and killed alot of people under direct orders from their country. This wouldn't be saying "**** YOU" to all the other German soldiers who fought in WWII and did the job their country asked them.

punchingdummy
8/25/2004 8:50am,
Whether he did or didn't is not as important as the perception he did.

..and he did. From LISTENING to his own words is more powerful thatn a transcript.

PeedeeShaolin
8/25/2004 8:52am,
Let me ask you a question:

If pretty much everyone, includinf the Secretary of Defense at the time, thinks our actions there were criminal, why shouldn;t Kerry say so in order to get those people HOME instead of DYING in a jungle for a war that had no purpose?

CaptShady
8/25/2004 9:07am,
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
He didn;t trash the servicemen though, I'd like to see a quote or article where he's done that.

All he did was say the war was unjust and that alot of atrocities were going on there. We know this to be true today.

If Robert McNamara can be a man and state that the U.S. actions in Vietnam, and by association his own, were crimes why can't Kerry say the same?

Kerry spoke SPECIFICALLY of the men serving in combat in Vietnam. He did not say that the war in general was a crime, our being in vietnam was a crime. He said the men over there were criminals. And being a Yale graduated, you'd think what he supposedly "meant" would have been made clear. Such as "SOME of the men over there are committing these crimes". Absence of some, could be construed as most or all.

Gelid Light
8/25/2004 9:11am,
They were war criminals. American soldiers can't help themselves from raping and killing foreigners. It's their nature. Even today we have soldiers calling what happened at Abu Ghraib, which doesn't even begin to compare to Vietnam, "Abu Grabass". Because of course the butt pyramids, child rape, and murder must be standard fun in the military.

PeedeeShaolin
8/25/2004 9:18am,
According to reason, they WERE criminals.

There were invading a country that did not pose a threat to their own and they were forcing their countrues will on a smaller weaker nation. Thats criminal and its obvious.

What Kerry(and just because I'm defending him doesn't mean I like him) should have done was point out that these men, just like the men at Abu Ghraib, were following orders and were told thier actions were necessary to defend their country.

Its not their fault they followed orders. They believed they were doing the right thing for their nation....just like the German soldiers in WWII.

You have to make the distinction between the young guys who went apeshit and raped women and took ears and soldiers who killed people but did so out of fear or survival.

Backing the actions of your country regardless of the actions of your country is foolish and goes against all reason and logic. By that standard the German people should hve openly backed the death camps. Backing something your country does that is wrong only worsens your nations image and leaves it open for retaliation and weaker as a result.

PeedeeShaolin
8/25/2004 9:22am,
American soldiers can't help themselves from raping and killing foreigners. It's their nature. Even today we have soldiers calling what happened at Abu Ghraib, which doesn't even begin to compare to Vietnam, "Abu Grabass". Because of course the butt pyramids, child rape, and murder must be standard fun in the military.

Heres where you and I differ.

Those people are in a situation that you and I really can't understand because we aren't there. In America stress makes people snap and take a shotgun to work, you think working in Iraq and in constant danger doesn't turn you into something a bit different? Its certainly a possibility so I'm not going to fault the people that did it. They were wrong and its obvious but people left in dire situations tend to abandon humanity. We've seen evidence of this time and time again.

This is why war should always be the very LAST resort when all else has failed.

Thats why the Iraq war is a sham.

CaptShady
8/25/2004 9:37am,
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
There were invading a country that did not pose a threat to their own and they were forcing their countries will on a smaller weaker nation. Thats criminal and its obvious.

That wasn't the context of Kerry's words though. And by that, the USSR, Germany, Japan, France, all "criminals" at some point in their past. Terrorist attacks also fall into this category.


Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
What Kerry(and just because I'm defending him doesn't mean I like him) should have done was point out that these men, just like the men at Abu Ghraib, were following orders and were told thier actions were necessary to defend their country.

Agreed .. but it also doesn't mean that the orders came directly from Bush's mouth.


Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
Its not their fault they followed orders. They believed they were doing the right thing for their nation....just like the German soldiers in WWII.

That's it ... but that should've made Kerry's speech "we were criminals". Saying the actions of the US were criminal, and therefor each individual over there of the mindset that they were doing just as you've stated, is outlandish. Unless you want to change the meaning of the word 'criminal'.


Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
You have to make the distinction between the young guys who went apeshit and raped women and took ears and soldiers who killed people but did so out of fear or survival.


I totally agree. Anyone who did that should be up on charges, JUST like the Nazi soldiers stationed in concentration camps who did **** beyond their orders. But these particular vets don't feel that the distinction was made clear enough.


Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
Backing the actions of your country regardless of the actions of your country is foolish and goes against all reason and logic. By that standard the German people should hve openly backed the death camps. Backing something your country does that is wrong only worsens your nations image and leaves it open for retaliation and weaker as a result.

True .. but we don't live in a world of global peaceful harmony. I'm not saying this was the case in Iraq, but if a guy keeps coming up to you and giving you a beating, it's time you take a monkey wrench and go upside his head with it, regardless of whether or not the action was "wrong". Not everyone looks at THAT action as wrong. Sometimes it has to be catch as catch can.

Balloonknot
8/25/2004 9:42am,
Kerry gave a speech yesterday and called the republican smear machine petty! I say hooray for John Forbes Kerry!!! He said, he stands by everything he said; and he stands by his medals and his actions. Fucking republicans are so damn clueless that they don't realize this story is over. Even Bob Dole will be backpeddaling as of today. Watch and see.