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The Wastrel
12/29/2002 1:54am,
I just found this among the comments on PeeDee's Qi article and find it so completely ridiculous that I have to subject this to debate. Long quote follows:

You say that the claim that chi can alter time and make you fly is crazy. You further say, in essence, that because this crazy claim is made about chi, chi does not exist. That is a logical falacy [sic]. Here's why:

Before people understood medicine, all sorts of theories flew around. One of them was that you got sick because a dwarf living in your stomach caused an imbalance of bodily humors. Now, that's a crazy theory. By your logic, since this crazy theory about sickness has been suggested, sickness does not exist.

Just because someone makes a stupid claim about chi doesn't mean that chi does not exist. The problem is that no one really knows how chi works. Well, we don't know how quantum particles can be in two places at the same time either, but that doesn't change the fact that they can. Just because we lack sufficient knowledge to explain chi does not mean chi is crap.

No, this point is crap. There is a fallacy, but it's not the one that Shadowfax is trying to point out. Here's the fallacy..."qi" is the dwarf! How is that not abundantly clear? It is NOT the phenomena that it attempts to describe! It IS the WHY. That is what is wrong with it!



**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

DanSevering
12/29/2002 2:37am,
Just because someone makes a stupid claim about chi doesn't mean that chi does not exist.
No, what's stupid is claiming that failure to prove a negative means diddly-squat. It's not even junk-science: it's pure mysticism. I prefer something that can be DEFINED and MEASURED.

MartialArtist
12/29/2002 2:53am,
Chi is basically energy. It's not some mystic thing that people think it is. That's just a misunderstanding and a perverted definition.

AiKIdo, hapkido, taiji (tai chi). All manipulate the other person's force, all lock up to prevent the other person from reaching maximum force, etc.

Gezere
12/29/2002 3:05am,
>Chi is basically energy. It's not some mystic thing that people think it is. That's just a misunderstanding and a perverted definition

Maybe so but if CHI/KI is ENERGY then it can be measured. NOONE has been able to measure CHI or fully prove its existence. Until this is done then it will stay in the realm of mysticism.

>AiKIdo, hapkido, taiji (tai chi). All manipulate the other person's force, all lock up to prevent the other person from reaching maximum force, etc.

This has more to do with BODY MECHANICS than an a unmeasurable energy.

______
Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!


"I love you Asia" - I Give BJJs Posted - December 25 2002 : 10:40:09

DanSevering
12/29/2002 4:07am,
>Chi is basically energy. It's not some mystic thing that people think it is. That's just a misunderstanding and a perverted definition

Maybe so but if CHI/KI is ENERGY then it can be measured. NOONE has been able to measure CHI or fully prove its existence. Until this is done then it will stay in the realm of mysticism.

>AiKIdo, hapkido, taiji (tai chi). All manipulate the other person's force, all lock up to prevent the other person from reaching maximum force, etc.

This has more to do with BODY MECHANICS than an a unmeasurable energy.

______

"Energy" is probably the most abused term in all eastern disciplines; it can mean anything they want it to mean, since it's all new-age Yuri Geller stuff in the genre of crystals and spoon-bending.

Justme
12/29/2002 9:25am,
Most of you know that I believe there is something to the idea of "Chi". You have attacked my views often enough. The reason I believe there is something to it is because I felt it. I asked my previous teacher one day "How do you know chi is real". This was just at the end of practice, and he ran his palm over my arm. Also, I could feel a light tingling. In doing the various strikes I could feel the power difference when hitting a bag. It was convincing to me. I was only with this teacher a short while, and have not been able to find another as gifted. So I started reading and gather more information. These experiences are all physical. Nothing mystical at all! It is a reproducible event. The beauty of it is through practice it just comes. But you have to practice diligently. That is been my experience. The only way you will find out for sure is to develop your own experience. But to say it is all BS, I believe is incorrect.



Edited by - justme on December 29 2002 08:28:27

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 10:29am,
Justme,
You seem like a nice guy, but you are sadly underequipped for this debate. You haven't answered any questions, or addressed any of the challenges.

He ran his palm over my arm. Also, I could feel a light tingling.

When my girlfriend runs her palm over my arm, I also feel a tingling...But seriously, don't all organisms generate some sort of electrical field? Isn't that part of how sharks detect their prey. What you said above should be a measurable phenomenon. If low level electricity in the human body is chi, then these are SOME of the relevant questions that you have to answer.
1) Does practice of internal arts produce variation in that chi? Why is this not measurable?
2) Why don't other animals have chi? My Akita hits pretty hard, but she uses her weight and is relaxed. Beyond the fact that these are explicable phenomena, what does this make her, a Taiji natural wonder. Then again, she is Japanese...
3) The phenomenon and the explication ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Again, you seem like a pretty decent fellow, and I don't want this to seem insulting, but this is something that you need to get through your head. Especially if you plan on defending this reasonably. NOBODY here is disputing the kinetic power phenomenon. We differ as to how it is produced. We also differ as to what are the requirements for a reasonable claim to knowledge. But that's a whole different debate that I feel is beyond you until you tighten your own argument.


The only way you will find out for sure is to develop your own experience.

Okay now, this is one of the most offensive arguments possible. I am disqualified from even forming a rational argument until I have spent blah-blah years cultivating my chi. This is mysticism.


You have attacked my views often enough.

I hope you don't take this personally, otherwise why are you participating in a discussion board? A philosopher named Karl Popper maintained that disagreement and contention, and even falsehood, were absolutely necessary to the discovery of knowledge. (That was a gross simplification, but a decent gist, I think)


It is a reproducible event

Which part is reproducible? Why are scientific explanations insuffcient? Realize that reproducibility is not the only criterion. Remember what I said about Poseidon and the waves? The waves move, it happens all the time. But does that mean my claim that Poseidon causes the waves to move, is correct?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Justme
12/29/2002 6:39pm,
I guess the problem I have Wastrel is I don't have the answer to your questions. I am still trying to get the answers myself. Omar has a sifu who seems knowledgeable in Tai Chi. I have asked him to ask his teacher some of the questions I have. I have gotten alot of information from reading the writings of Erle Montaigue as I stated before. This is my main source, but there also is alot of what he says that does seem unbelievable. So I am trying to take what I think I understand and verify it. The stuff I have come to believe I believe because it seems to work when I practice. For instance, striking. Alot of the Tai Chi strikes seem to be palms, knife-edge, finger jabs etc. There is a move in the form Erle calls "fishes in eight" part of the move involves a block/strike to the left and circle in and out to the right. When you do the last part of this move against a bag, for example, if the move is done using the waiste to help propel the hands out it generates a great deal of power. Maybe its all biomechanics or something as others have mentioned. Erle relates it also to the generation of energy (chi) to complete the strike. There are a number of other examples. Thats why I am also looking for a GOOD teacher to help carry on my learning. I might be close to finding one. I may not always say it as effectively has others but I see questions on these forums about whether this stuff or that works and am sharing what I have found out. Maybe it will help others. I have found you take what you find useful and use it and leave the rest.

SRyuFighter
12/29/2002 6:49pm,
Chi or Ki exist. Its just energy. You learn how to use your energy, and you become a better fighter. Any traditional Martial Artist knows this.

Bring out the windbreakers, I feel a storm coming on!

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 7:01pm,
Justme,
I haven't attacked the usefulness of Taiji. The "chi" in "Tai Chi" and the "qi" in chi are different.
SRyufighter, do I even have to respond? Part of the distinction versus internal arts versus external arts is the idea that "qi" energy is cultivated within the body and released from within the body. External arts are power from the body moving through space and interacting with other bodies. You TMA's don't even appear to understand this distinction. Qi Gung involves claims that cultivation of qi can lead to immortality. If, as YOU claim, qi is just energy, what kind? And is qi a NECESSARY explanation for us to understand the phenomena?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Justme
12/29/2002 7:35pm,
I hadn't heard about Gigong and immortality. As I mentioned, alot of my info is based upon Erle Montaigue. He says it has many of the properties of electrical energy. I tend to agree with this.
Final to your questions:

1. Practice and variations in chi - From what I have read there is only one Chi. Internal arts practice just has excercises that help cultivate it.
2. I think other animals have chi just like we do.
3. The phenomenon is produced through a relaxed, connected movement. Tension I have read chokes the flow of energy off. Stifles it. This relaxed connected movement I believe is the idea of "sung". Thats how Erle explains it, and I have e-mailed him on this several times.

The idea of your own experience was not meant as any kind of insult. Its just that to help understand it clearly you need to try the excercises to experience it yourself. I don't have enough knowledge to explain it well enough. You are in California. I am in Ohio. I would think you probably have access to some really well schooled people where you are. If you found one, they could show you what I am unable to explain better. Also, I didn't mean to say YOU have attacked anything. I apology if that is the way it came across. I had Kato the one time all upset because I talked about Yang LuChan who died in 1872. How could something so long ago be relevant. Well, just because it was so long ago doesn't mean it isn't. Here was a man who used this stuff for real. We, I have read, was very successful How was this so. What did he do. I would imagine even Chen Xiao Wang the current keeper of Chen Tai Chi doesn't have the frequent confrontation Yang LuChan had. So how did Yang win? It would be nice to get some concrete information about him and his techniques.






Edited by - justme on December 29 2002 18:37:02

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 7:53pm,
Justme,
On practice and variation in qi, the claims that qi is low level electricity and that it can be cultivated by Taiji practice would seem to lead to a conclusion that a very successful practitioner of Qi will have a lot of it. That was what I meant by variations in qi. Variations in level, not magnitude. You need to understand this because it's very important. When you do, you'll understand my point. THE PHENOMENON OF KINETIC POWER AND THE EXPLANATION OF QI ARE DIFFERENT! Even some Taiji practitioners will tell you that you are confused. If someone who practices Taiji hits something and it flys fifty feet, that DOES NOT mean that qi exists. Qi is the explanation for how that kinetic power manifests itself, and it is incorrect. At my Chinese martial arts school we had someone who taught Yang Form Taiji, and I think it is an excellent way to get people in touch with correct biomechanics. But here's a shocker...the teacher did not believe in Qi.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Justme
12/29/2002 8:53pm,
Not shocked maybe that is what it is. Just better biomechanics. I think, though, in dealing with Erle, it can be demonstrated that skilled practictioners could generate more chi then unskilled. There is a guy named Gary Romel. He has a website, and has trained directly with Erle. I have not. He lists his phone number. He is in Oklahoma City in the Air Force. I have talked with him on the phone. He is very knowledgeable and could explain more. Not putting you off, but I just don't know. I am to knew at the whole thing myself.

MartialArtist
12/29/2002 9:02pm,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:
"Energy" is probably the most abused term in all eastern disciplines; it can mean anything they want it to mean, since it's all new-age Yuri Geller stuff in the genre of crystals and spoon-bending.



<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>
Energy cannot be measured. Calories can be measured, so can force, but just energy as in what we're talking about cannot be measured.

Ever hear of someone who was able to lift a car when they couldn't pick up a 150 pound dumbell? That can be considered as chi.

Body mechanisms. Yeah, the technique allows you so the person can't use his energy against you. In wrestling, if you control the hips while the person is down, the things he can do are very limited. You disrupt his "process" or movement.

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 9:03pm,
Why don't you just say kinetics? BTW, I saw that Romel's website. Looks like utter nonsense.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

MartialArtist
12/29/2002 9:04pm,
Chi is more mental than physical.

Have you ever concentrated on your technique and your power went up a bit?

With breaking, it is crucial. If you hesitate, or your mind goes off somewhere else and you lose focus, you break your hand.