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cyberstalker
12/28/2002 9:30pm,
This whole site is based upon exposing fraud in the martial arts world. As we all know, and I have learned even more so, after coming here...there is no shortage. A lot of us thing of this as a recent problem, but I have been thinking a lot about history.

Many Buddhists really believe that the Bhodidarma is the father of all martial arts.

A great deal of young Chinese men at the turn of the century believed that the martial art would protect them from the bullets during the Boxer Rebellion.

Ninjitsu was purposely shrouded in myth, lies, and silly claims that are contradictory to modern science.

Chi/Ki, etc, which is an important aspect of many south Asian belief systems, has become something ridiculous in the west. Especially in the mouths and minds of people who grew up watching star wars and have been looking for the equivalent of the force ever since. Guess what people. I was sharing some tea that a Chinese friend of mind brought back from Mainland China. The advertisement on it said that it would cure cancer. I didn't believe that claim either. Then again, in all fairness, someone rising from the grave after 3 days isn't the most rational belief either.

I am constantly reading about this or that kick that will instantly break ribs or crack skulls, etc. The fact that unless your opponent is held securely in some to a great deal of the kinetic energy of that kick will result in physical movement reducing overall tissue damage.

Black Belt magazine seems to give legitimacy to any one willing to advertise in their magazine. I have a subscription, but I have learned to take their articles with a grain of salt.

The sad fact is honesty in the martial arts might be the excepti




Edited by - cyberstalker on December 28 2002 23:48:36

MartialArtist
12/28/2002 9:56pm,
Actually, chi/ki can be viewed as harnessing your mind. The mind can do great deal to your power and your abilities. Or, you can manipulate the opponent's energy.

Nobody knows where MA came from. It was probably wrestling.

Ninjitsu has a lot of myth to protect its secrets.

Not that many young men believed that they could fight bullets, are there any primary sources on this?

The Wastrel
12/28/2002 10:03pm,
Yes there are many sources. There were enough young men to manage a significant uprising that triggered a multi-national reprisal.
Now "qi" is "harnessing your mind"? I had to listen to a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner explain to me a theory that the hand was analagous to the body, so if one located the equivalent areas in the hand, you could treat ailments in the body through acupuncture in that area of the hand...so how do treat the hand?!! "Qi" is not what a lot of eager Western apologists want to say it is. You can't borrow information from a philosophy that requires testing, controls, verification, falisifiablity and peer review to defend a superstition that just happens to correspond to some real phenomena. Do you believe that Poseidon moves the waves? No, right? Well...the waves move! What's the difference?!

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Edited by - The Wastrel on December 28 2002 21:05:15

elipson
12/28/2002 11:15pm,
I use to read BB magazine quite a bit, but there's so much Bull in it recently I don't even look at it anymore. They had an article on Jim Lacey's crap a few months ago. All the iron palm stuff, lighting things on fire with your hands and crap. Utter bullshit, but they still published it!! And they have lots of articles that are like that, its just sad.

Sometimes they have good ones though, like they had one a little while ago about Krav Maga, which explained the history of krav and how its gone mcdojo recently. Great article actually, but they're few and far between these days.

Martialartist: Do a search for boxer rebellion, theres lots of stuff on it.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

MartialArtist
12/28/2002 11:23pm,
I use to read BB magazine quite a bit, but there's so much Bull in it recently I don't even look at it anymore. They had an article on Jim Lacey's crap a few months ago. All the iron palm stuff, lighting things on fire with your hands and crap. Utter bullshit, but they still published it!! And they have lots of articles that are like that, its just sad.

Sometimes they have good ones though, like they had one a little while ago about Krav Maga, which explained the history of krav and how its gone mcdojo recently. Great article actually, but they're few and far between these days.

Martialartist: Do a search for boxer rebellion, theres lots of stuff on it.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Have you found any primary sources? All I found were secondary sources.

The reason for primary sources is that it shows what exactly the people were thinking when they thought they could go against a firearm and the rationale behind it, like "I can catch bullets"

The Wastrel
12/28/2002 11:28pm,
MartialArtist: The primary sources would be in Chinese. Do you really want us to dig up primary sources? The Righteous Harmony Fists performed purification exercises that were meant to inure their bodies against all forms of physical harm. It was not uncommon for them to perform public demonstrations (breaking demos anyone?) of their ability to do so.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

cyberstalker
12/29/2002 12:45am,
Actually, chi/ki can be viewed as harnessing your mind. The mind can do great deal to your power and your abilities. Or, you can manipulate the opponent's energy.

Nobody knows where MA came from. It was probably wrestling.

Ninjitsu has a lot of myth to protect its secrets.

Not that many young men believed that they could fight bullets, are there any primary sources on this?



Regarding Chi/ki - Sometimes when I am lifting heavy I imagine my arms are mechanical robotic arms that feel no pain and will complete the motion regardless of the weight they are attempting to move. I also feel the power moving these arms flowing from around the navel up through my arms. This little visualization technique usually helps me lift heavier at get out more sets. I do think people who discuss Chi or Ki could be tapping into something. I just cast doubt on some of the wide reaching metaphysical psuedo science that is often attributed to it.

Regarding nobody knowing where martial arts came from, I think you would find a million sources that merged an branched since man first began walking upright.

By the way, how dare you ask for references when I am in the process of blabbing away. You mean I can no longer just make unsupported claims here? :-)

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 1:11am,
"I do think people who discuss Chi or Ki could be tapping into something."-Cyberstalker

But what is that thing? Inevitably, the "Qi" apologists retreat to a position that "qi" describes phenomena that are much better understood and described by kinesiology, sports medicine, physics etc. What then, is the point? If the point is that "qi" is the new word for these phenomena, okay. But then does "qi" help us with the "why"?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

DanSevering
12/29/2002 2:47am,
This whole site is based upon exposing fraud in the martial arts world. As we all know, and I have learned even more so, after coming here...there is no shortage. A lot of us thing of this as a recent problem, but I have been thinking a lot about history.

Many Buddhists really believe that the Bhodidarma is the father of all martial arts.

A great deal of young Chinese men at the turn of the century believed that the martial art would protect them from the bullets during the Boxer Rebellion.

Ninjitsu was purposely shrouded in myth, lies, and silly claims that are contradictory to modern science.

Chi/Ki, etc, which is an important aspect of many south Asian belief systems, has become something ridiculous in the west. Especially in the mouths and minds of people who grew up watching star wars and have been looking for the equivalent of the force ever since. Guess what people. I was sharing some tea that a Chinese friend of mind brought back from Mainland China. The advertisement on it said that it would cure cancer. I didn't believe that claim either. Then again, in all fairness, someone rising from the grave after 3 days isn't the most rational belief either.

I am constantly reading about this or that kick that will instantly break ribs or crack skulls, etc. The fact that unless your opponent is held securely in some to a great deal of the kinetic energy of that kick will result in physical movement reducing overall tissue damage.

Black Belt magazine seems to give legitimacy to any one willing to advertise in their magazine. I have a subscription, but I have learned to take their articles with a grain of salt.

The sad fact is honesty in the martial arts might be the excepti


Martial arts is probably the biggest repository of junk-science since not only is there no REFERENCE to real science (nor do most practicioners seem versed in it at all), most of them won't even put it to the test by subjecting their methods to competition; the value of "reality-fighting" is that it engages the scientific method of pragmatism, i.e. subjecting claims to a real test. While such matches as the UFC tend to focus more on the fighter than his technique, it permits the observer to gain some eclectic knowledge of what proves worthy in actual combat, as opposed to simply accepting dogma.

If it hadn't been for the UFC etc., I'd probably be dead right now as a result of trying to defend myself with untested methods.

DanSevering
12/29/2002 2:59am,
Actually, chi/ki can be viewed as harnessing your mind. The mind can do great deal to your power and your abilities. Or, you can manipulate the opponent's energy.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:
Most modern MA came from the Greeks through Pankration and wrestling, since they were the ones who originated modern science and medicine, and it was adapted by the Romans along with wrestling. But ALL martial arts came from the the army to train soldiers for war.
Bruce Lee was probably the first one to try to actually inject any sense into it, but he didn't do much; he still kicked ass though from what little he did.


Ninjitsu has a lot of myth to protect its secrets.


Ninjas were the surviving Samurai of lost wars, but refused to commit hari-kari so they took to living on the lam; thus, all their techniques adapted from those of the Samurai. Most of their techniques are based on stealth and sneak-attacks (the Japanese didn't believe in chivalry).
Those "myths" were just more junk-science as well as lies to bind the minds of the soldiers to their masters.
[quote]
Not that many young men believed that they could fight bullets, are there any primary sources on this?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>
It's basic history regarding the boxer rebellion: they brought knives to the gunfight--- and lost.



-----------------
[quote]
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

- Motto of the Navy SEALS
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>

Actually that's the US Marines' training slogan.
You mean I can train by relaxing in the sauna? Non sequitur.



Edited by - DanSevering on December 29 2002 02:34:28

Omar
12/29/2002 3:25am,
Wastrel and Martial Artist,

LOL

If you're defining primary sources as people who personally actually believed qi-ging would make them resist bullets language is not an issue. I'm in China and the sources for mst of what I post here were given to me in Chinese.

The problem is that your first hand sources would be about 120 years old as the events you are talking about were at the turn of the century.

:)

cyberstalker
12/29/2002 9:19am,
But what is that thing? Inevitably, the "Qi" apologists retreat to a position that "qi" describes phenomena that are much better understood and described by kinesiology, sports medicine, physics etc. What then, is the point?



I agree, that it would probably be more accurately described and probably could be described by kinesiology, sports medicine, physics etc in modern society, but the people who talk about it and feel they use it seem more comfortable leaving it in the world of the mystical.

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 10:38am,
Actually Omar, I know that's not a strict definition of primary source, but MartialArtist required that as a "primary source" I have studied Chinese, a little, and Chinese history and politics, a lot. I speak fluent Korean, and have studied that region as well. I think it's ridiculous for people to ask for primary sources all the time. First of all, they're not available. Second, academic publications draw heavily on primary sources and are subject to peer review. They're pretty reliable, and the claims they make should be transparent and accompanied with the relevant data, as well as a list of what was consulted. Demand for primary sources seems more like an attempt to shut down debate on terms that can't be met by either side.
Omar, I lived in Korea for a year and a half, and I know exactly what you're talking about. I knew graduate engineering students that believed that sleeping in a room with an oscillating fan could cause asphyxiation!! You can imagine the explanations for that one.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Omar
12/29/2002 10:49am,
Wastrel,

Actually, that's sprt of my point.I just meant to point out that asking for a primary source on that particular question was asking for much more than simply Chinese language skills. It's like asking for a primary source to prove that there were no automobiles on the street in the 1890's. Everybody who was around then is DEAD ! Or VERY very VERY old .

On a side note, in the course of asking a co-worker for the approximate dates of the last boxer rebellion, I learned that the character for 'gun'in Chinese is the same as the one for 'spear'.

spear = 'da qiang' or 'big' qiang
gun = 'shou qiang' or 'hand' qiang

I thought it mught be relevant to the "qi-gong makes you invulnerable to 'guns'" question. Seeing as 'gun' and 'spear' are the same character in Chinese.

I apologize in advance for any typos as I have just drunk about 5 or 6 ounces of Chinese 104 proof baijiu.

The Wastrel
12/29/2002 11:11am,
Baijiu shi shenme? Sorry, had to do it...
I understood your point Omar, sorry if it didn't seem like it. I'm debating Qi right now on another thread and I can't even get the guy to make an actual claim without accusing me of "attacking his opinions" *shudder*.
Since you're in China, and I am now in Korea, I want to solicit your opinion on a related issue. Do you think that with all the Westerners that seem so eager to jump on the Eastern mystic bandwagon with the Feng Shui, Qi, and others, don't you think we should pay a little attention to what that sort of damage that nonsense has wreaked in its native lands? And it isn't just believeing in Qi, it's the whole process of knowledge claims and justification. The example I cited above is just representative of the sort of stuff I encountered daily. I had an argument with a Korean teacher about metal baseball bats. He claimed that they were made of iron. I said aluminum. He was offended, not at the possibility that he might be wrong, but that I dared to disagree. He was older, and therefore, THE authority. He just laughed at me and shook his head and said something about soda cans being malleable while baseball bats were not. Finally, he said we'd have to go to a "metal expert". Imagine the absurdity of going to a metallurgist to discover whether a metal baseball bat is made of aluminum or iron...Another time, I had an argument over whether or not gassed bananas were superior to naturally ripened ones. On this one I consulted my girlfriend, who has a degree in Plant Science. He was not satisfied and maintained that my girlfriend must be wrong. The problem is that there is little common culture that dictates claims to knowledge, while a lot of that has made itself gradually into common consciousness in the west, though with mixed results. Age trumps everything, and phenomena are frequently confused with the explanations.
Having lived in East Asia for awhile, it hurts me to see Westerners trotting this **** out very day, and being cavalier about proof and testing.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

JKDChick
12/29/2002 11:50am,
Metal bats are aluminum. An iron bat would weigh too much to swing. Aluminum is actually a very rigid and strong metal, it's just not very dense.

Your girlfriend was wrong because she is a woman, and everyone knows we women can't think or reason, right? (giggle)

The whole Eastern bandwagon reminds me of that wretched paternalistic bullshit people like to lay on the Native Americans, about how peace-loving and close to nature they are. Then you point out many tribes kept slaves, slaughtered innocents, and created a large amount of the New Mexico desert with lavish deforesting.

I must admit, I think the principle foundation of any martial art is either "hurting people" or it's fake. JKD was such a breath of fresh air for me because it didn't cloak anything in mystical bullshit.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."