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Bang!
7/28/2004 2:19pm,
I just read through Katana's account of his experiences in this year's mundials (nice job, by the way) and I thought that I'd bring up the issue of scoring points in a competition setting.

It seems that many competitors are more concerned with winning points than risking defeat by pushing themselves or playing a more realistic game. My questions are:

Are you one of these people?
How does this approach affect one's training?
How does this approach affect MA in general?
If you aren't one of these people, then what is your attitude toward competing with them?

Ronin
7/28/2004 2:24pm,
There is only ONE victory on the street, and that is survival.
Competetion is just that, for most, the point is to win.
When I competed I lost many a judo match cause I would go for the sub, or choke, when a pin would have done.
In kyokushin, you can win by points, and many times you do, but I always went for the KO.
Same thing in boxing, granted with my size and in amat. boxing, points weren't that easy to get, still, I went to the body knowing I would get almost no points, just to open the head for the KO.

Shooter
7/28/2004 2:26pm,
I've always gone in with a plan to try different ideas. Depending on the venue, I would try to set up certain patterns to work off of in experimenting with the ideas.

I get caught plenty in training, and competition is no different. The idea of winning or losing doesn't even factor into my research. I want to test the basic ideas I'm training against people from outside my circle.

I entered the advanced divisions at my first BJJ tourney with the attitude, 'Better to get beat by the best than to beat the rest'. I did alright.

TylerDurden
7/28/2004 2:33pm,
It's too bad but some seem to think the point of training is to win these tournaments, not realizing the tournaments were supposed to be mock fights in a way. My school had a seminar not too long ago (2 months I believe it was) with two black belts from Brazil. One of them talked about how alot of schools down there are not teaching people to attack but to play the points game. A common tactic now is to pull half guard, get into a good sweep position and then just wait. Wait for time to run low, sweep, hold and win by a couple points.

I was glad that Luis (the Brazilian) did not agree with this, and does not teach that way. But as long as there are trophies to be won, some people will always look for loopholes to get the advantage their training is not providing.

Dochter
7/28/2004 2:33pm,
As I understand it the bjj point system is a little different when it comes to points. Points are awarded positionally for things that would let you kick someone's ass: Mount, reversal to a better position, good takedowns (not pulling gaurd) and the like. Being able to maintain mount on someone while stalling for a minute does have some martial relevance. In contrast watch that AMC "Into Character" Karate Kid thing and try and tell me how points were awarded. Didn't even look like a fight to me.

That being said, despite a lack of competitive experience, over stalling seems like a bad thing to me.

Antagony
7/28/2004 2:55pm,
**** points.

Utterly defeating your opponent is where it's at.

TylerDurden
7/28/2004 2:56pm,
You must make them say MATE! Just like Frank Dux!

CrimsonTiger
7/28/2004 3:05pm,
If my paycheck depended on my winning fights? I'd play the game.

But yeah, given my current mentality and level, I'd just go for the "fun" stuff...KOs baby!

dadaggie
7/28/2004 3:14pm,
I was recently in a TKD tournament - don't start! - and point sparring sucks. Got "beat" by front kicks that never connected. I HATE POINT SPARRING! In class there are ppl that get upset when you clock them with a punch to the head. "That's a strike!", they cry. Your damn right it was - right to your head. I want to learn how to defend myself - not get a medal. Point sparring doesn't prepare you for self defense. Light contact doesn't prepare you for "t3h str33t". We have bb that couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag. And don't ask about what happens if it goes to the ground. "you can get away before that happens". Right.

Bang!
7/28/2004 3:26pm,
The mentality at my club is: Train realistically and then learn whatever arbitrary rules there are a day or two before the competition. Try to stick to them, but if you get DQd or out-scored for fighting properly, so be it.

katana
7/28/2004 3:48pm,
The lower belts in the Mundials were definitely playing for points. When you get into the higher ranks they were generally going all out for submissions. I think it just depends on who your fighting on whether you can get away with getting points and stalling. If you're both rolling for points then that's the way it's going to be. If one of the two of you wants a submission then it's a lot harder to play for points. With that said, we were told that a lot of the Brazilian schools put a lot of training into winning by points and less on submissions. This works great if you're Brazilian and have a Brazilian judge from your school ref'ing the match. If you're American though and are fighting a Brazilian you better get a submission because they don't award points as quickly and you don't want to leave anything to chance. We had people who were openly ripped off by the judges and lost on points. Afterwards when a complaint was made the answer basically was "Oh well". That's why at our school we train for submission in competition as the first and only strategy. Submitting someone doesn't leave doubt in anyone's mind who won.

Bang!
7/28/2004 3:54pm,
Yes, Katana. But yelling, "Yeeehaaaaw, bitch! Como vocÍ gostam disso?" is really just rubbing it in, IMO.

katana
7/28/2004 3:56pm,
Ha! :)

If you yelled that out at the Mundials and their teammates heard you there would be a riot right then and there.

CrimsonTiger
7/28/2004 5:16pm,
May I ask what that means?

"Who's your daddy, bitch!?!" or something to that effect?

edward
7/28/2004 5:20pm,
Point sparring is unrealistic.

If you want to win in striking matches, you have to make it painfully apparent that you hit, to all the judges or at least most of them.

That, and you can't use a lot of techniques (grappling, elbows), can't hit to a lot of areas (back of the head).

It's pretty dumb.

BUT at least it makes people used to hitting each other.

Bang!
7/28/2004 5:23pm,
Originally posted by CrimsonTiger
May I ask what that means?

"Who's your daddy, bitch!?!" or something to that effect? It just means: "How'ya like that?" Thank you, Babblefish.