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MartialArtist
12/26/2002 1:57am,
This forum has been recommended to me and doing some browsing, I can tell you this is a great group of people. Some people may be bias in the sense that "my art is better than your's" or "tae kwon do is incomplete" nonesense but I've seen a lot of great and knowledgeable people here.

Well, I've been training in the arts all my life. Having an Asian background, my training started early and HARD from family and then later, a few instructors. My root arts being in military TKD and hapkido. Military TKD as in brutal, none of the super fancy kick tap-point. Military TKD as in knees, locks, grappling, a lot more punches, elbows, weapons training. To describe it to McDojo practitioners, look at muay thai, with sport TKD, hapkido, and some freestyle wrestling.

In my early years, I've been to Korea to train for quite a bit. A lot of mental training, more of seeking my potential. Then I came back to the States where I was born. In high school, I wrestled and became 2nd in the State in my junior year. Before college, I went to HK to learn some wing chun. Came back, went to college, and boxed at a club for fun and kinda got hooked. Well, then I settled down and wanted to try muay thai for a short while and it was pretty good. But nobody has the time to pursue all the things at once.

Right now, I volunteer at a club where I teach self-defense to kids and adults and yes, I do get challenged quite a few times and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's your life or your kid's life, you wouldn't want to put them in danger. Do not teach styles, I teach period.

My advice is if you want to be a MMA, at least get some background information on one art before making all the branches. It would be pretty confusing to learn wrestling, boxing, etc. at the same time, it'll be a matter of "should I grapple or should I strike" and it should never be like that. Of course, some arts are easy to learn at the same time, but I still suggest getting a strong foothold. Or, you can continue to try to master the one art.

Which is the best art? There is none. Well, there is one exception.

Some of the old styles of kung fu which were not actually created for combat but rather the movement of animals, thus is not the science of combat, but the science of movement that can be used as combat. That's why the five elders, one of them being Ng, a Buddhist nun, created a simplified version and I'm sure all of you know what the art is. Legend has it that Ng got it from watching a crane and a fox, but if it was true, all she probably got was it was the principles of attacking and defending at the same time. Now, you can be a great fighter using movements based on animals, but you could be much more effecient. Sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but what exactly is your path, and what are you looking for is the biggest question.

Take BJJ for example. BJJ in the UFC would be entirely different from BJJ in street conditions. I bet I wouldn't see any of the Gracies doing what they do in the ring where they sometimes land on their heads... In relatively controlled UFC conditions, yes, he's fine. On concrete, no.

Judging fighting styles on the UFC is pointless. The UFC is far from fighting. A step above a lot of martial arts tournaments today, but nonetheless, is nothing more than wrestling with some strikes. I'm pretty sure all of you can point out flaws in its theory. One being the person and not the art, controlled conditions, restrictions, judges' decision. The people in the UFC are great fighters, but they wouldn't last very long if they use the very same techniques on the mat. How many people would start a fight shooting in from far away? You just risk yourself getting kneed.

A lot of arts in theory are complete. You can fight just using one principle. If you're a good striker, you don't need to grapple. If you're a great kicker, you don't need to punch. That's in theory. However, humans are fallible and thus, need some rounded skills. You should still perfect what you're good at. If you're a great kicker and a horrible puncher, you should practice your hand techniques extensively. But in a fight, use your strengths. If you're slow and awkward, don't try to act graceful - you'll only put yourself in a bad position. You should practice being graceful, but not when your life depends on it.

Just because an art doesn't emphasize one thing does not mean it's incomplete. If you were to perfect it, you wouldn't need anything else.

But why other martial arts? Why take a variety? So you may get used to other techniques that aren't restricted and are provincial or some extra principles. Or something to adapt to, as fighting is like water like Bruce Lee said, always changing as moving water never grows stale, and water always attacks the weakest points.

People saying TKD is incomplete, etc., are probably used to what I like to call, the full-of-nonesense TKD... Notice I didn't use McDojo because even great instructors will teach you to kick all the time and such. And is it you, a person who has studied 1/1000000000000000000 of the art, ready to judge? Or someone who is not physically or mentally ready to tackle it, ready to judge? If you're very uncoordinated and couldn't box, of course you're going to say it's the worst art ever.

You can spend your entire life comparing arts and saying which one is better, but you'll learn after years of studying, at least 20 years, that all arts are relatively the same. The same basic techniques are there. Basic attributes to be successful, and many other things like that. A punch is a punch. There are DIFFERENCES but one isn't better. A wing chun punch may get extra power from the added wrist movement than a normal straight from boxing, but you increase chances of hurting your wrist. A SPORT style roundhouse (military has two roundhouses, and two side kicks) may be faster, but it doesn't have as much power as a muay thai roundhouse. You may use one or the other depending on where you are, who you're going up against, the timing.

A lot of people always question why the fancy high and jumping kicks. Why do boxers jump rope? Jumping kicks develop a lot of the motion and power. Especially the spinning ones, they also develop agility. The high kicks are there because if you can kick high fast, you can kick fast lower. And there is a time for every technique, even high kicks. Chances of using a high kick is much rarer than the chance to use a low kick, but they're there. Why the horse stance? Traditionally, it had its uses which are now obsolete for many people, but it still has its uses. It develops stability in your legs and your body.

If you're fast enough and you know your enemy well enough, you can even try out some high kicks as yes, there will be a time for them.

Every technique was developed for a reason like I said. Jumping kicks were used to take people off horses. Even today, they still have their purpose. The fancy jumping kicks develop your sense of balance, your speed, hip agility, power, and dynamic flexibility. The only thing you have to know is that it's helping you indirectly, not to be used as your #1 technique in combat.

Another example is football, why do people do plyometric exercises? The jumping has nothing to do with football. Or lift weights. Think about it.

Arts shouldn't even be there, rather, techniques for the individual.


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MY RANT

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It seems that most of you who bash traditional martial arts have no idea what they're talking about. Sorry, training for a couple of years at a McDojang does not give you knowledge in the art to even talk about how effective or how ineffective it is. Martial sport, yeah, TKD sucks. Traditional art = practical self-defense. Of course, the word tae kwon do shouldn't be used, but the meaning of tae, kwon, and do describe it well.

TKD (talking about combat version) can beat some folly "scientific" New Age tai chi, or some overhyped sport BJJ where the master claims he studied biomechanics (which means little in a real fight). TKD can beat all, and can be beaten by all martial arts that are true to its fighting roots.

Again, most of you probably trained in TKD or the other "crappy arts" in the West. So chances are, 99% of what you learned is bullshit. However, before you bash it, remember that there are people who do use it practically, and the skills in TKD have never let me down.

The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

- Motto of the Navy SEALS

MartialArtist
12/26/2002 2:07am,
Another thing. Wary of advertisers that use fake numbers/statistics

There are many BJJ groups that say that 90% of the fights end up on the ground. How true is that? Many fights do end up on the ground, but it is usually not due to some fancy takedown. The guy is KNOCKED down, and the guy doesn't go up in the comfort position and control the hips and wrestle the guy like what a wrestler or a SPORT BJJ guy would do, but he's kicking the guy while he's on the ground.

And also, MMA can become a sport. I've seen many BJJ artists, even the ones who call themselves experienced, just shoot in without setting it up. It might work on some newbie, but against a trained fighter, you just don't shoot in. You will get kneed, punched, elbowed, kicked, or sprawled on. BJJ teaches you to set everything up, but even in the UFC, I have seen things like that. A knowledgeable person like Rickson Gracie even though he doesn't compete in such folly organizations like Pride or UFC, is very precise and sets everything up. He feints, dodges, uses footwork, and is quick and assertive.

My personal opinion is that with all the rules, limitations, and conditions, the UFC is nothing more than a fancy wrestling match. And no, if the fighters were in street conditions, they wouldn't fight the same way.

The fighters have developed something that works best IN THE MATTED RING, not in real-life. And on mats/rings, grappling usually is the best. On grass, concrete, asphalt, wood, etc., the fighting is going to be different. I once saw Royce in a fight with I forget who. He was held high up in the air. Royce exploded with his hips and landed on his head. In real-life, he would be seriously hurt. But on the mat, he got back up and made the man tap out.

Fighting on the street or in the real world is a different matter. Fighting in the street depends on who wants it more, who is better conditioned, who is faster and more powerful (does not mean stronger), who thinks faster, is better skilled, and has the right metnal state. So it basically depdends on the fighter, not on what he studies.


But any great martial artist will tell you NOT TO FIGHT. The best martial artists don't get into fights, no exceptions. Anyone who was in a real, brutal fight would tell you how fragile the human body really is and how much damage you can inflict.

The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

- Motto of the Navy SEALS

JKDChick
12/26/2002 4:21am,
My friend, as soon as everyone gets back from the holidays, you're gonna get HAMMERED with flames on this thread.

Hold on and ride it out. I don't agree with a lot of what you've said but my views on TKD, BJJ and realism in fighting arts are well known around here. I won't drag them out again on your thread.

It's important to keep these kinds of debates alive, growing, expanding. We need lots of opinons. If you're stupid, surround yourself with smart people; if you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you.

"I'm not tense; just terribly, terribly alert."

J-kid
12/26/2002 5:28am,
Dude i dont even need to respawned to most of your **** but you dont know much about martial arts or you have your thumb so far up your ass you cant make sense of what is true and what isnt. First off look at the old UFC those where real fights. Dont give me this bs that you think that your gonna get away with your mcdojo ideas. Wait til you really get flamed. hahahaha

Amir
12/26/2002 6:30am,
Well written and I agree, thumbs up.

People here complained about B.J.J. way of teaching S.D. since that way does not go to the ground and is more similar to J.J.J. and it's derivatives (Aikido). Which are the M.A. those same people so like to bash on.
While the B.J.J. originators (Gracies) apparently think there is a difference between the Ring and a Real fight, their followers are offended and wish to believe the ring is everything.

I Agree no M.A. is superior, it's your teachers and own personality, experience & physical attributes that determine your capability as a M.A.
Amir

Kensai
12/26/2002 8:33am,
Welcome to the forums Martial artist, great post and much of it a agree with. Like JKDChick said, these debates must keep expanding and growing, there is no right and wrong, its only what works for you.

Yours in Aiki.

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." -O Sensei Ueshiba

TKD Boxer
12/26/2002 9:37am,
I do BJJ and yes I agree there is a huge diffrence between the street and the ring. But you have to know what you are fighting on and with. If you are on grass and you arefighting one guy. hell yeah! BJJ all the way! If you are fighting 4 guys on concrete, ****! Don't go to the ground. Despite what most think, BJJ also have alot of standing combat. Th bottom line is that you have to know what you are fghting on and with.

Vargas
12/26/2002 10:43am,
Believe it or not, sport fighting (NHB or submission only) does have a place in preparing someone for self-defense. At a minimum it:

1) forces you to get in fighting condition.
2) exposes you to the adrenaline surge you experience when fighting a stranger.
3) matches you against a fighter who has trained just as hard as you and will resist as hard as humanly possible.

True, you don't want to fall into the trap of thinking that you will always be on a padded surface with a ref there to control things. Just realize that MMA or submission tourneys are exercises that allow you to practice in as realistic a way as possible. Some people will do stuff (ie jump to the guard) that would get them hurt on a hard surface. Believe me, they know it and probably wouldn't try it outside a mat.

As for BJJ and the Gracies. . . I will say this about the Brazilians. They have an open invitation to anybody who thinks they have a better way of fighting. If you have doubts about what they teach, there is an easy way to find out. Just swing by a BJJ school and announce that you want to challenge someone of similar size and experience. They won't be rude or anything, but they'll probably videotape it.

Finally, "The people in the UFC are great fighters, but they wouldn't last very long if they use the very same techniques on the mat." I just watched the last UFC (UFC 40) and there was a ton of striking, at least 5 KOs or TKOs that I can remember. In fact, 3 of the matches didn't go to the ground at all. So how is that 'wrestling with some strikes'? Most of the top guys are primarily strikers (Ortiz, Hughes, Liddell, Lawler, Silva, Belfort, Pulver, etc...) I have a feeling they would do pretty much the same thing in a real fight that they do in the ring.

P.S. Isn't the motto of the SEALs "The only easy day was yesterday?" or was it "It pays to be a winner?" "Move, shoot, communicate?" I can never remember, I'll have to email one of my navspecwar buddies and ask him.

DngrRuss1
12/26/2002 10:46am,
Great post MA... inteligent and well stated. That simply won't be tolerated on this site. :)

I am glad that another fighter agrees with my assessment of TKD, et.al. I do agree with JKDChick though, there's going to be plenty of knuckle-headed dolts with their fingers on the flame button.

Keep up the thoughtful posts and welcome aboard.

FightKing
12/26/2002 12:05pm,
Great post martial artist. It really doesn't matter if you get flamed or not. We all have to learn right?

Gezere
12/26/2002 12:18pm,
>Great post MA... inteligent and well stated. That simply won't be tolerated on this site. :)

You got that right. I'm issuing 10 Demerits for an intellegent reasonable post. I am also issuing 1000 Demerits for doing it in you first post without profanity or insults.

Welcome to the site! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

I Give BJJs
12/26/2002 12:38pm,
profanity and insults are the only way to get your point across

Jamoke
12/26/2002 1:02pm,
your fukking right it is. and if you dont like it, get the fukk out!

"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

patfromlogan
12/26/2002 1:03pm,
Good thoughtful post-i like Chung Do Kwan TKD.

"If you're a great kicker and a horrible puncher, you should practice your hand techniques extensively. But in a fight, use your strengths."

Hmmmm, that rings true from my experience. Before testing for shodan, i was told to build upper body strength. As a body surfer, mountain biker, and cross country skier, my legs were powerful. After working in the oil field lifting iron for six months i was strong enuf, but in self defense, i have only used my feet.

"A lot of people spend a lot of time arguing about what style is better. This is a complete waste of time." Oyama

Jamoke
12/26/2002 1:49pm,
"If you're a great kicker and a horrible puncher, you should practice your hand techniques extensively. But in a fight, use your strengths."


and how might we do this??? lets hear what kinds of hand techniques???

how do you know either your feet or your hands are effective in a REAL FIGHT?? have you been in any???

"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

MartialArtist
12/26/2002 2:21pm,
Dude i dont even need to respawned to most of your **** but you dont know much about martial arts or you have your thumb so far up your ass you cant make sense of what is true and what isnt. First off look at the old UFC those where real fights. Dont give me this bs that you think that your gonna get away with your mcdojo ideas. Wait til you really get flamed. hahahaha

Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn

The old days before the so many limitations, was the closest thing to a real fight as you can show on TV legally. But now, you would have to agree that with the judges, that mattress, the ropes, and the rules are going to change the whole concept.

It's funny to hide behind a flame and say, "It's McDojo" talk, but it seems you have no understanding what a McDojo is ironically. You have one component of McDojo talk, being arrogant. Would the wise be so kind to enlighten us? :rolleyes:

Maybe it's you who doesn't understand, but do you know the history of judo? There are many types of judo, even in the beginnings of judo, it is just a modified version of JJ. Doesn't mean it's less practical, but most people study judo as in the SPORT JUDO. Wait, judo is an Olympic sport, like TKD. So yes, it's the very same thing.

And no, my fights since I was a kid, the military, and me teaching self-defense and being challenged by parents who want to test to see if I'm good have no merit. You take what you watch on TV. Great job son!