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Mercurius
12/24/2002 5:13am,
And if so, what form do they take?

We all know about the lethal (or potentially lethal) moves in other martial arts. In other styles of kung fu, the lauded eye gouges, tracheal rips, neck snaps, in karate, a good shuto to the windpipe or shoken to the base of the neck, in judo and jujitsu, the various chokes.

But what about Tai Chi? I do not question that masters of Tai Chi can put great force behind their palm strikes. However, aimed at almost any part of the body (yes, including the nose), even a powerful palm strike isn't likely to be lethal.

Where, then, are the "lethal applications" of Taiji? Are they to be found elsewhere in its strikes or chin na? Surely the Chen family has, even if by accident, killed a man in defense of their village over their centuries' history. How did he die? You get the point.

Any Taiji students or cognoscenti are welcome to answer.

"God is dead." -Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead." -God

Edited by - Mercurius on December 24 2002 04:14:34

Justme
12/24/2002 5:28am,
You probably have quessed what most think of my answers if you look at other threads. However, I feel the best way to answer, go to www. taijiword.com and look under the articles area. There also is a pdf file showing the points. That I think will answer your question. The Tai Chi I have learned uses mostly palms but also, fingers, knife edge, fist, elbows knees, head,and feet. Eyes can be a tough target because of accuracy. Popular targets are in the kneck and down body center.



Edited by - justme on December 24 2002 04:34:32

SamHarber
12/24/2002 5:33am,
Tai Chi is as likely to kill as any other martial art, i.e. by accident. In terms of deliberate killer techniques, well... they're the same as the ones you've outlined above. The fabled Dim Mak strikes are to my mind, a load of bollocks. Pressure point strikes are purely to set people up for a damned good kicking. people tend to confuse Tai Chi for some sort of subtle art. Its not. Its as brutal as any other, its just the way it gets there is slightly different.

Justme
12/24/2002 5:51am,
From www.taijiworld.com

Dim-Mak Facts
By Erle Montaigue
March 14, 1999



Much confusion seems to have been created by people who practice martial arts other than dim-mak specific martial arts when they claim all kinds of things about this deadly art. So what follows is a list of things that one should consider when deciding upon a dim-mak instructor.



1/. Dim-Mak does work. But only if you have invested in the many years it takes to learn it and that the art has been learnt internally! It does not work if you cannot fight to begin with!



2/. Anyone is able to learn the very basic Dim-Mak strikes and make them work. We in the original Dim-mak arts such as Taijiquan call these strikes, the "Children's Strikes", those that are taught to children so that they can protect themselves very quickly not requiring any real training or power. These strikes include those to the back of the head using an open palm slap, those to the ST 9 point (carotid sinus) which works upon the physiology of the body to maintain a relatively even blood pressure. When struck, this point, which is located directly over the carotid sinus, causes the brain to think that extremely high blood pressure is present so it sends a message to the brain which in turn sends a message to the heart via the vagus nerve to either slow right down or to even stop! This is how this strike works. And literally, ANYONE can do it on a 'sitting duck', those who make themselves available in seminars for instance, to a teacher who thinks nothing of damaging those students just for a boost to his own ego. There are however, many other points on the body that also act to lower the blood pressure like those associated with the gallbladder, intestines and the urethra. The stomach for instance has nerve endings in the lower part of the stomach coming from the vagus nerve which when struck also cause the knock out from a sudden lowering of blood pressure and heart slowing.
Those strikes to the back of the head using an open palm shock the brain when even light pressure is used, often causing a knock out. Strikes to the back of the neck will also cause the 'easy' knock outs by the action upon the 'brain stem' or reptile brain when it is kinked. This is a medical fact that when the brain stem is kinked, the brain goes into knock out.



3/. All knock outs or dim-mak strikes, no matter where they are performed are DANGEROUS! And should never be done in seminar for the sake of some ego hungry instructor! Many people, after being knocked out for instance by one of the new breed of ego hungry instructors who do not really know anything other than a few 'children' strikes', complain of sickness that comes and goes. This is normal for someone who has had his brain concussed or who has had his blood pressure lowered so quickly that the brain does not know what is going on. Even simple strikes to the arms can cause serious damage late on, perhaps a few days later or even a few years in later life as they all act upon important acupuncture points in the body causing an energy (Qi) blockage which grows with age! When we are young we do not notice the effects so much and by the time some of these strikes are beginning to take effect, we have forgotten all about being knocked out ten years ago! So we put it down to some old age disease state.
Any good doctor will tell you that any knock out is dangerous and you will lose many millions of brain cells with every knock out. And never believe any of the new wave of knock out specialists who will lie to you, saying that these strikes are not dangerous, and that they are only putting someone to sleep! They are simply concussing the brain into knock out.



4/. It is impossible to knock out someone who does not wish to be! That is if the knock out specialist does not know how to fight and you would be surprised at how many very highly ranked martial artists do not actually know how to fight! It's one thing being able to knock someone out when they are standing in front of you begging to be struck. But when asked to perform the same knock out on a person who is simply covering up as in a good kick boxer or boxer for instance, these knock out specialists are in all cases unable to perform the same magical feat!



5/. Real dim-mak requires many years of training in the Internal Martial Arts, those arts that dim-mak was invented for. Stiff, movement as in many of the harder Japanese systems do not lend themselves to Dim-mak as one must be able to MOVE the body before performing real Dim-Mak strikes. Qi must be able to be transferred in order to work the many more 'electrical' point strikes rather than the more simple "children's strikes". And this takes many years of internal training such as Qigong.



6/. It is impossible to take Chinese ideals and ideas and ways of moving and simply place them over some Karate style. Karate has a totally different way of movement which does not lend itself to Dim-mak. Many will tell you that they have done this to the betterment of Karate, but this is not true. If you practice Karate, it is much better to stick with the way it was originally taught rather than trying to change it in some way to be more effective in the Dim-mak area, it just does not work. It is like trying to play checkers but using the movements that are used in Chess! It cannot be done.
Many karate people who have tried have failed and eventually either give up the Chinese way or give up the Karate way, they have to eventually choose between either Chinese or Japanese/Okinawan. And in many instances by the time they realize this, it is too late as their body is unable to change to a more natural flowing and continuous way of moving. The best that can be done is to change the way you move in your karate system so that it is more flowing and continuous, this will help greatly! Many are now doing this to great effect.



7/. You would never purchase a motor car without the steering wheel or motor. So why purchase a martial arts system without it being a holistic martial system? All great martial systems have three areas built into them and all involve preservation of life and NOT the reciprocal. There should be the self-defence aspects which are only ever used in the preservation of one's life or that of one's family members or others less able to defend themselves. Then there is the "Self Healing' area where we learn to preserve out own health in order to protect ourselves and family from external attack by simply being healthy enough to use the martial arts for self-defence. Then we have the "Medical Area" where we preserve life from pathogenic attack by using our martial art to firstly diagnose disease states and to then heal those states by getting at the root cause. And if a martial art does not have those three areas then it si NOT a martial art. Many are now adding 'internal parts' to their hard styles in order to make them more holistic. This is possible but the way of moving must also be changed in order to achieve this. And something like Qigong has to be practiced in order for the internal therapy to work. So if you intend in taking up acupuncture for instance, then it is advisable to also take up Qigong so that you get the internal stuff necessary for all Chinese healing arts.



8/. Most Chinese Martial Artists have some knowledge of acupuncture, if not formally, they have an eclectic informal knowledge. However, by the same token, it is not satisfactory for someone who practices stiff and un-flowing movement in their martial art to take up any Chinese healing system as all Chinese healing systems require the same body movement and internal energy that is required for the martial arts area. There is no difference between the Qi that we use for fighting and the Qi we use for healing. So if you have learnt a tense, stiff martial art that will only impede the flow of Qi, then you will never be able to learn for instance Acupuncture other than at a very basic 'needle' level where you expect the needles to do all the work! We in the west go out and take a four year acupuncture course and at the end come out with a degree to put up onto the wall. While in China, I am talking about the traditional way here, the student does not even get to stick one needle into a human being until at least 7 years of being an apprentice. I know of Chinese western doctors who have spent 7 or so years to get their doctorate in medicine but who are still not allowed to stick an acupuncture needle into anyone having studied for the same amount of time! This is because in China, the Qi aspect is much more important than the physical knowledge of where to put the needles, how to put them and what points heal what disease states.
To hammer home this point, I use an example of the NSW College of Traditional Chinese Medicine. At their final year the first lot of graduates had to travel to China for a 3 month stint at a real traditional Chinese hospital. At the end of the 3 months all were commended on their knowledge of point location and other knowledge of the points and what they do etc. However, the main doctor at this hospital said only one thing, that al though their technique was perfect, they had nothing coming from 'here', pointing to the tantien area. So after that I was asked to begin the first formal Taijiquan course as part of the T.C.M. graduate course. H
However, having said all of that, often the best that we can do IS a four year formal course in acupuncture. In that case you must really train hard in your Qigong to make the acupuncture work correctly!



9/. You do not have to practice on people to discover how Dim-Mak works, only very basic beginners need this confirmation. When one rises to a high level of internal training, we are able to simply touch areas of the body showing the recipient that 'something' different is happening, this is at a healing level. The recipient then knows that if for instance that strike were to be done much harder and using 'adverse Qi' that the result would be negative instead of positive thus damaging the internal structure not healing it.
The whole of Chinese Traditional Medicine and martial Arts is based upon Yin and Yang (opposites). But this is not quite true as Yin and Yang must be continually changing into each other and back again just as night must surely change into day and males become more female and we grow older and females become more male. So ti stands to reason that the healing arts can easily change into the killing arts with only a change in the mind and the pressure of the strike, the intent.



10/. Taijiquan is the original Dim-Mak art from whence all other Dim-Mak arts have come. Sadly, this aspect of one's Taijiquan training has been lost many times over until nowadays this once great martial/self-defence art is only a glimmer of its former self with most instructors only ever teaching a very basic form. Dim-Mak was invented by Chang San-feng and the secret forms that he invented to learn this deadly art were later to become known as H'ao Ch'uan or Loose Boxing and then later still as Taijiquan. Other system eventually discovered what Taijiquan had to offer and were able to lay Dim-Mak over their own styles. This was easy as they were all Chinese Systems making use of natural and flowing movement. The so-called 'Hard Styles' wanted this knowledge but were unwilling to change their whole system so they tried placing Dim-Mak over their own system. But because of the inherent nature of the hard styles, this did not work. And still does not work today no matter how hard they try.



11/. It is impossible to be proficient in a hard style and a soft style, it's like trying to mix oil and water or fire and water. I have many students who are not willing to give up their hard style as this is how they make a living. So they decide to practice both the internal and the external. This never works out and eventually they come to the realization that they must give up one of them. Problem is that they have probably wasted 20 years in trying to practice two arts when they could have been specializing in one.



12/. Size has noting at all to do with Dim-Mak as it's not the dog in the fight but rather the fight in the dog that matters. In the internal martial arts, we are taught about things like the Reptile Brain and how to access it. We are taught that real fights do not happen logically, that they happen totally illogically. So it is impossible to fight someone who is totally illogical using logical movements and ALL martial arts use logical movement. This is whey I always say that no martial arts is good for self-defence unless it has been turned into a self-defence art. And that is what the internal martial arts is all about. We take a logical set of natural flowing movements, learn them very well until the body moves freely and flowing and then take those movements into a sub-conscious illogical way of moving so that we are able to defend ourselves. But you cannot do this if you are taught that the movements that you learn in your martial system, kata/form etc., are what we use for fighting! And also, we can never use Dim-Mak if we are still at the logical kata stage. And that is the stage that unfortunately many instructors only ever see. And one of the main reasons for this demise of real martial arts is that most only ever wish to get that black belt quickly so that they can begin earning money or taking ego boosts from being a teacher of martial arts.
Learning martial arts should be a natural progression with not thought what-so-ever of ever becoming an instructor. If you have some lofty goal in mind when you begin, then this clouds the ultimate goal of simply becoming the very best that you can at your art. Then maybe you should think about teaching others, and only when you have given up your own ego and are able to teach for the good of others and not just for your ego or bank balance.
A good warrior instructor teaches because he or she loves to see those that they teach advance in life skills. And to see the students overcoming life's hurdles in general, able to cope with western living and the ups and downs that we all face. This is what the martial arts is for!

Justme
12/24/2002 6:04am,
From www.taijiworld.com:

Dim Mak Strikes from Tai Chi form By Erle Montaigue:


Opening:

Raise palms so that the wrists attack into both of the opponent's inside wrists to attack to Nei Gwan (Pc 6) bringing the force in towards you. Then, when he has been weakened by this, pull him down onto your knee into GB 24 or LIV 14.

Push Left: (Arn Left)

Shake to block his oncoming attack to attack with left palm to GB 1 (lateral to the corner of the eye and just up a tad or SI 19 (on the outside of the ear just where that little protrusion is.) Must be struck in a going towards the face direction and using the tips of the fingers. Causes dizziness and fainting on a small scale but will kill if great power is used.

If SI is used then we squeeze the little finger to heal if only light and dizziness is felt but if harder then there is no cure.

More From The Same Posture: Block his oncoming right attack with left palm pushing upward on the outside of his arm as you right palm comes underneath and step to your left. Attack his TW 17 just behind the ear with a towards you strike, this is a killing point as there is no cure!

More From The Same Posture: Block with left P'eng as your right palm immediately comes over it to take over, now the right palm swings his arm greatly over to your right as your left palm attacks to ST 9. If he is only knocked out, then lay him in foetal position and squeeze the back of his neck on GB 20 just under two base skull bones. If done too hard then the heart stops so CPR is necessary.

More From The Same Posture: Block from small san-sau, attack to the ST 9 again while the other palm attacks the inside of the wrist in a towards you way to upset his seat of power.

BLOCK RIGHT:

This can be a carry on from the previous from the old yang, after you have attacked his GB 1 point, the left palm swings over his arm to take it under and attacks to his GB24 while the right palm attacks to his LIV 14 downward way. This is a two strike dim-mak and means either knock out or death. No cure.

More From The Same Posture: Using it as a block, Attack to his heart and lung points on the inside of his wrist area.

PENG:

Attack to the mind point.

CURE: Grab rear of neck, GB20 and squeeze while rubbing mind point back towards you.

DOUBLE PENG AND PULL DOWN:

Multiple applications. Attack to his ST 9 using double peng, attack further ST9 when palms roll over and attack GB14 downward, Attack to GB 24 or LIV13 as he goes down. No cure!

More From The Same Posture: Attack initially as before but now as you roll your palms attack to Li14 and CV24 in a left to right direction. Now attack to ST 15 and 16 downward with right palm and also to li14 with back of left palm. usually the direction for ST15 and 16 is spiral but when used with LIV 14 is straight down. Causes knock out or death. No cure.

CHEE:

Attacks to either GB 24 or LIV 14 and 13 death. no cure. Or can be used to CV14 stops the heart permanently.

AFTER CHEE:

The knife edges of both palms attack both sides of the neck chopping across laterally to cut off the blood and air supply. Damage to the carotid is done and care should be taken.

SIT BACK:

First bit, turn to your left slightly and rub the Qi towards you on the inside of his right wrist. As your fingers of right palm attack to CV22 (pit of neck).

ARN:

Attack in screwing motion to ST 15 and 16. Causes energy to be drained out of body. Cure, rub points in the opposite direction, if not dead.

OLD YANG STYLE: CHEE AFTER 1st:

Take his right wrist attack and pull it backward as your right back palm attacks to his GV 26 (just under nose) Causes death is done hard enough but causes total disorientation if done lightly. Now both palms scrape his Qi backwards on the inside of his arm and then join to attack to his CV17 point in a downward stroke to take his power away, drain it. SIT BACK AND ARN (OLD YANG): Block his attack on the inside of his arm to cause weakness, then attack with fingers to LIV13 both sides, then elbows attack in upward to LIV14 then fingers scrape down into eyes.

INTO FISHES IN 8 (both styles)

Sit back and take his block with your left palm as your fingers of the right attack to the eyes. Now turn your body so that his is dragged around and your right elbow attacks to the side of his neck. Now turn back and both palms attack into his ST 9 and GB24 points.

SINGLE WHIP:

Block his left attack from rear and step to behind his ankle with left foot to attack KD 5 with your heel as your left palm slams down on to SP21 (just under arm pit and down a little on lateral muscle.

LIFT HANDS: CHENG-FU:

If he grabs your right palm use 'flying' to break hold and attack to his GV 26 just under nose in an upward manner.

MORE: Now slap his left attack on elbow with your right palm and wrist with left palm and pull and push to upset his power and cause his leg to be weakened for the kick.

MORE: Attack to H3 a the same time as kicking using the right thumb in a towards you manner.

OLD YANG: Block to rear or front and jab with fingers into his CV22 point.

MORE: Block with both palms and attack to CV14 and CV4 (tan-tien) with double dragon palms.

MORE: Turn and block his left inside forearm with right palm and pull it toward you as left palm attacks to ST 24 or 25 in a lateral way (lateral to the navel and on either side of it up and down. now both palms attack to either the side of the neck, right palm or to CV24, and with the right palm pumping straight inward to CV14, death, no cure.

PENG AFTER SHOULDER

Take his right wrist and attack upward into his neck with thumb side of right palm.

STORK SPREADS WINGS:

Attack to temple and groin.

BRUSH KNEE AND TWIST STEP:

Block his left arm pulling the points towards you on the inside of his arm. Your left palm takes his left elbow and turn it into a hammer lock. Now your left knee attacks to LIV13 and you throw him away.

PLAY GUITAR:

This is different to lift hands, We take his left straight punch and push the Qi backwards along his arm, this weakens his left knee so we kick it.

STEP FORWARD, PARRY AND PUNCH:

Attack his neck with right hammer fist as your left fingers dig in to CV 14 or CV 4, Hammer his forearm backward, and attack to his ST 9 point. Block his right attack with a pushing forward motion and attack to CV 14 with an upward turning punch.

OLD YANG: Attacks to both LIV13 or GB 24.

SIT BACK: OLD YANG

Block his left attack with right palm as both palms come back after punch, now both back wrists attack to his LIV13 points and then come up in spirals to attack to his ST15&16.

APPARENT CLOSE UP:

He attacks from behind, we take his fingers and attack them using small ch'i-na.

CARRY TIGER BACK TO MOUNTAIN: Old Yang

Firstly, after BKTS, we attack to his ST 9 and block with our right palm (left hands) Now we turn to face the other attack from behind and block his left, as our both palms roll over into fingers and attack to CV 14 and 4. Now we break his arm, attack to ST 9 and LIV14 and as before to ST 15&16 and GB 24.

FIST UNDER ELBOW: CHENG-Fu.

Block his left arm to affect the Qi and weaken the body, as your left palm attacks to GV26 under his nose.

SAME, OLD YANG STYLE:

Block his left attack with left palm as your right tiger fist attacks to GV 26.

REPULSE MONKEY: Cheng-fu.

Slam the points on the inside of his wrist to affect the Qi, as your right palm slams downward onto CV 17.

OLD YANG: Block to rear and attack to TW17 as you throw him.

OLD Yang AFTER REPULSE:

Take his right and attack to SP20 with fingers of right palm. Then pull his right palm downward to your knee as your right palm attacks to his eyes or to GB 1 edge of the eye.

MORE: He pulls away, you follow and attack to CV 14 and CV 4 with middle winding. Now take his right arm and attack ST 15 and 16 with a pounding left palm, horses mane.

Cheng-Fu Hold ball, Block his left attack with right hinge and attack to his CV 22 with fingers of the left palm. Now step behind and attack to stomach points with horses mane.

NEEDLE AT SEA BOTTOM. Old Yang

Used to lock wrist points to break wrist easily.

FAN: Both Styles,

Take his wrist and squeeze it tightly to weaken his Qi. Attack to the arm pit at H1 right up in armpit.

TURN AROUND AND CHOP WITH FIST.

Block with left palm, take right palm under to lock wrist downward, Grab wrist with right palm and attack to temple with left palm.

NEXT BIT, Cheng-fu:

Uppercut to GV 26, attack side of jaw with hammer fist, left fingers attack to CV 24, then attack to ST 17 (nipples) and GB 24 as take down.

OLD YANG: Attack temple with GB3, penetration punch, Now attack to GB 14 with back fist,

OLD YANG: Take left wrist and squeeze, turn it around and pull down across to expose ribs and attack with chee.

CLOUD HANDS:

Block his attack downward and attack to SI 17 Just under the jaw. This is done in a lateral way, the form dictates this.

HANDS TO HEAVENS:

Block his attack and jab to CV 22 with fingers.

HIGH PAT ON HORSE:

Block his oncoming attack away from the Qi path and attack to ST 9 and kick to groin.

BOW: Cheng-fu.

Attack to TW 17 after blocking and taking over the block.

Open Hands:

Before kicks. Even this has a dim-mak application. we run our front palm along the length of his arm thus upsetting the Qi in the body before we kick.

KICKS: Cheng-fu.

Aimed at kidney shu points on the back.

Kicks are aimed essentially at the CV 4 point but must be in an upward direction this gives us the correct way in which we should be kicking.

PUNCH TO KNEE! Cheng-fu.

This is not a punch to the knee but rather a strike to the TW 12 point on the arm.

HITTING TIGER: Cheng-fu.

We lock his arm and take him around attacking to TW 12 and then attack to the temple. GB 3.

OLD YANG STYLE: Break his arm against TW 12. Block his punch and attack to GB 24 and CV 22.

Old Yang: After kick, he goes in at the waist, we attack to just behind his ears with double hammers (TW19) then the knee attacks to the face in general and we follow up with double phoenix to GB3's.

OLD YANG: Attack downward slipping with left palm against the flow of energy then fingers to ST 9.

OLD YANG: Double spear hand.

Block using both knife edges, and attack to CV 14 and CV 4 with spears.

SLANT FLYING:

Block with hinge and attack with finger to CV 22, barge in with shoulder to CV 14, attack with right slanting arm to under armpit. HT 1.

End Of Slant Flying:

Sit back and attack to CV 24 and LIV 13 with fingers.

2. Attack his arm on the outside with left palm in a backwards direction, TW 9 (half way up the forearm. Finger of right palm attack to CV 22. or eyes.

FAIR LADY: Old Yang.

Normal one, attacks to ST 17. Other one attacks to CV 14, elbow, bridge of nose, slap, CV 22, fingers and GV 26 and CV 14 instant death! No cure.

Cock: Old Yang.

2nd part attacks to neck.

SNAKE PUTS OUT TONGUE:

Attacks to CV17, and mind point.

INSPECTION OF HORSES MOUTH:

Attacks CV22.

AFTER FAST KICK, OLD YANG;

He reattacks so we grab his left wrist and bent it dragging his as we attack to the SP 20 point.

PUNCH LOW:

Attacks CV 4.

LOW SITTING:

After chee, he attacks, we attack on the inside of his forearm in the wrong direction, using thumb, as our right elbow attacks to GB 24.

He attacks with right, I block it with hammer left palm as my right palm comes up under to attack to HT 1.

AGAIN: He attacks with right, I change weight to block with left and attack with right fist under to GB 24. Now the right fist goes around behind to attack kidney shu points while the other fist attacks to GV 26. Now I block his attack with my right palm under my left arm and attack to ST 9 and CV 22 with my left fingers. Death!

NOW continuing,

I attack with both palms to LIV 13 with the right and straight up under the neck with left palm. ST 9.

STORK: OLD YANG (Straight Up Way To The N.)

Block down and attack straight up with knife edge to GV 26.

Pigeon: Block with P'eng and lift arm so that h1 is exposed for the finger strike as well as to GB 24 with palm.

ROLL ELBOW OVER TO ATTACK to elbow joint.

Squeeze to back of neck GB 20 and punch to mind point.

SLEEVES LIKE PLUMB BLOSSOMS:

Spin around and block then strike to GB 14.

TWO PUNCHES:

To GB24 while bending wrists.

HIDDEN HAND punch:

to CV 4.

STEP FORWARD TO 7 stars.

This means that he sees 7 stars when hit! You come up and punch to CV 14, then attack both sides of the neck ST 9's with both fists. This is also a potent qigong which opens the '7 star' points where Qi is said to enter the body. Namely, GV 20, SI 16s, CO 14s, GB 30s.

AFTER RIDE TIGER: (block),

Turn around and block with left and attack to ST 9 with knife edge.

Turn around again and further block to rear and take over with right palm to attack to HT 1, then use lotus kick to kidney shu area.

SLJ
12/24/2002 6:10am,
Even if these so called "Death Strikes" do work, which I highly doubt, they're not really practical are they. Killing people is not generally a good idea.

I think they are the most pointless thing in existance.

----------------------------------------------------------
”He (Master Bristol) was like a slippery fish. There was no way I could hold on to him.” -- Tomas Shurrman, Judo Expert

gong sau
12/24/2002 8:38am,
I love this part:



4/. It is impossible to knock out someone who does not wish to be! That is if the knock out specialist does not know how to fight and you would be surprised at how many very highly ranked martial artists do not actually know how to fight! It's one thing being able to knock someone out when they are standing in front of you begging to be struck. But when asked to perform the same knock out on a person who is simply covering up as in a good kick boxer or boxer for instance, these knock out specialists are in all cases unable to perform the same magical feat!


Great! That's handy, knock-outs from taiji don't work against resisting opponents! At least they admit it. But one must ask: what's the use?

And this is great, too:



The stomach for instance has nerve endings in the lower part of the stomach coming from the vagus nerve which when struck also cause the knock out from a sudden lowering of blood pressure and heart slowing.


Funny, I found an interesting artical about the vagus nerve that details where it goes and what it does. It's from a Medical school library website. Here's what it had to say about the above:



The visceromotor part of the vagus innervates ganglionic neurons which are located in or adjacent to each target organ. The target organs in the head-neck include glands of the pharynx and larynx (via the pharyngeal and internal branches). In the thorax branches go to the lungs for bronchoconstriction, the esophagus for peristalsis and the heart for slowing of heart rate. In the abdomen branches enter the stomach, pancreas, small intestine, large intestine and colon for secretion and constriction of smooth muscle.


(Credit for the above goes to the Loyola University Medical Exchange Network)

So, The vagus nerve does adjusts blood pressure, but that sensing is done at the heart (wow, that actually makes sense). It does have sensors at the stomach, but they are used for another, stomach-related purpose. Now before anyone gets the dumb idea of saying that the nerve gets "confused" or some such and sends the wrong signal, remember that nerves are hard-wired and cannot "decide" to do anything differently from their normal behaviour. Otherwise, you'd be able to hit a nerve that moves someone's finger, say, and have it make them **** their pants, in which case we'd all be shitting our pants every time we bumped the back of our hand on something. Hardly believable.



First, I'm gonna hit ya...then you're gonna fall

The Wastrel
12/24/2002 9:29am,
Justme: Nonsense, you make the claims. The vast preponderance of evidence is weighted against you. The burden of proof is yours and for you to expect us to be anything but skeptical in the face of this nonsense is insulting.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Vargas
12/24/2002 9:46am,
Man, all those wasted years of wrestling, submission fighting and Vale Tudo. I should have just switched to Tai Chi or better yet, Dim Mak. Then I could change my name to Remo Williams and go to work for the government and make movies and. . .

It's all bullshit. If anyone honestly believes in this crap, then put your money where your mouth is, enter a MMA tournament (I'm sure Ultimate Athlete or King of the Cage would be delighted to oblige) and see what happens. Oops, do the gloves get in the way of the 'chi'? They still have bare-knuckle events in Tiajuana and Juarez, just head south and try your death touch down there. Since everyone signs waivers, don't pull that "It's too dangerous, I might kill someone" excuse. Personally, I think your chances of getting killed from a Muay Thai kick to the head are much greater than from anything a Tai Chi/Dim Mak 'fighter' might pull out of his ass.

Kato
12/24/2002 10:25am,
"Then we have the "Medical Area" where we preserve life from pathogenic attack by using our martial art to firstly diagnose disease states and to then heal those states by getting at the root cause"

????
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Please divulge more - do you truly understand the implications of this statement? Put your money where your mouth is trollboy and back yourself up.

twas the night before Christmas,
and all through the Kwoon,
everybody realised,
Justmes a prune.

SamHarber
12/24/2002 11:49am,
Justme... you're on your own. I'll go and watch from the sidelines again.

Kensai
12/24/2002 12:00pm,
LOL!

Justme, we (The traditional MAists), have tried hard to claw back some dignity to our beloved systems and you have taken it all away from us!

However, great piece of trolling keep up the good work. ;)



"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." -O Sensei Ueshiba

Boyd
12/24/2002 3:28pm,
I like how every time someone almost convinces me that Tai Chi is an effective martial art, Justme pops up to say "HERE'S A WEBSITE WHERE THEY TEACH YOU TO SHOOT HADOKENS AT DIM MAK POINTS"

Justme
12/25/2002 9:59am,
Mercurious - You asked about the deadly strikes and I gave you some info I had.
Omar - You think my story about the tai chi fight is ridiculous. Well, the real story was told to me by a friend I knew about 3 years ago. The facts. 1. He was attacked while on a business trip when he was in the wrong part of town. 2. There were two attackers. 3. He took the first one down as explained, and when the second attacked, he took his leg out from under him and ran off. The police could not find the assailants and said it was self defense.

Sam and Kensai - I don't think I am doing any diservice to the arts. The article from Erle about Dim Mak just says Your mind is stronger then your body. You can develop it. That there are points on the body that can be used for self defense for those who are trained. No secrets just training.

Vargas you think me a fool. I can't help that. I still respect the fact that you serve our country. In fact, in Oklahoma is a guy named Gary Romel. He is on the internet and teaches what I preach. He too is in the Air Force. I have called him and he is very easy to talk with.

Boyd - **** You

The strikes from the form are what I have learned. No magic. I do believe in the history of Tai Chi it came out of people who where first acupunturist, and understood what they believed to be energy flow. The history I read speaks to this. HOw is this crazy or unreaonable.

Most of you are just stuck on BJJ and the MMA styles. They are great styles. They are not the best however.

Someone told me to enter an MMA event and prove it! I am an avid shooter. I know, however; that if I shoot someone with my handgun they will be seriously injured or die. I don't have to DO IT! I am not as violent as most of you. Call it cowardice, but I just don't believe I have to prove it in the ways you want.


Call me a fool. I will tell you however. There are people on this board you should listen too. Balloonknot, FukFu, JKDchick, Asia, KC Elbows, Peedee even Jamoke. Don't listen to me. However, you keep challenging my belief, and I give you information I think supports it. Boyd you are an ASSHOLE! Omar, you could help. YOu are there in China. What a great opportunity. Take some of what I am saying and ask around. Check a guy named Jarecks web site Chinafromtheinside. He has interviews with many great martial artists.

I'll say it again a different way. YOur mind is a powerful tool, it can be developed to enhance your body. There is an energy that you all have that can be manipulated if you train. IT IS NOT MAJIC!!!! It is hard work.

So if I am a fool. So be it. I do believe this.

Vargas
12/25/2002 11:18am,
I like the comparison to shooting. Think about, how confident are you that if you pull the trigger of a loaded gun, it will actually go off? 99%? 99.9% Modern firearms are very reliable, that's why cops and soldiers carry them. Now look at tai chi and dim mak. If you actually no-**** hit someone on one of those pressure points while they were actively attacking/defending, would it have the desired effect? If it would, have reliable would it be? 50%? 80%? 99.9%?

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't places on the human body that react poorly to contact (groin, throat, solar plexus, chin, all the usual suspects), but there is an easily understood reason why they are preferred targets, any EMT could explain it. This energy manipulation stuff just doesn't stand up to modern science. Is there energy in the human body? Of course, you see it every time someone is hooked up to an EKG. Nerves work and muscles contract because of energy, no one is disputing that. But claiming that someone can consciously control the electrical (or whatever) energy in their body and use it in a fight? Scientific method, dude. It's why modern guns are reliable and 'death touches' are not. I wish energy manipulation worked, then I could stop using night vision goggles when I fly and just use the Force.

That's the reason why the comments about competition came up. People on this board are from Missouri (metaphorically speaking). You have to show them. You can't make a claim and just expect people to swallow it. You have to back it up with evidence and, right now, NHB events are the best way to provide public proof. Either that, or video tapes of actual use against non-cooperating attackers. The burder of proof is on the style, not everyone else (ie it's not up to me to prove Dim Mak doesn't work, it's the other way around).

The reason I sounded rude (for which I apologize) in my previous post is because I feel that there a people, just like you, who have been sold a bill of goods by these so-called 'masters'. These hucksters train people, convince them they are lethal weapons and then let them walk out of their dojo believing a lie that might get them killed or maimed. If you train in unarmed combat, you have to have absolute, rock-solid faith in your abilities. I don't think tai chi or dim mak have met that criteria. I'm willing to believe it, but not until I see more proof. And no, I don't think it takes a decade to master a fighting skill. If you work hard, train right and have mental toughness, you can become a very good fighter in 5 years. Any style that says "Well, you have to study 10 to 15 years to be effective" are hiding something. Go figure, medical school and your first year of residency are only 5 years. Human beings don't take that long to build skill. Maybe not mastery but skilled? 5 years, max. Christ, it took me less time than that to get a college degree and make it through pilot training.

This issue is what lies at the heart of the 'McDojo' phenomenon. Instructors making wild claims, getting students who desperately want to believe in the techniques to fork over lots of money and then declaring them ready and able should they need their skills. All without a shred of real proof or evidence. If Muay Thai or BJJ guys sound arrogant in comparison, it's because they have seen their techniques proven again and again in public contests and real-life situations. If I see a BJJ black belt or MT champ, I may not like the guy (or gal) but I'd bet my life on them if they had to fight in a self-defense situation. Can I say that about Karate? Wing Chun? TKD? Tai Chi? Aikido? Of course not. The proof isn't there, therefore my faith in those systems is lacking. Now, it could be a quality control issue (ie for every good Karate black belt, there are 20 phonies), but that's not my problem, that's the styles fault. If Tai Chi/Dim Mak want the respect accorded Muay Thai or BJJ or MMA in general, they have to step up to the plate. Otherwise, it's just talk. And you know how much weight talk carries.

Justme, you sound like someone who really wants to learn martial arts. That's good, that's what is needed to become proficient. Just be skeptical when it comes to unsupported claims. Hard work and physics will make you a good fighter. Don't feel like you have to rely on energy manipulation or magic death touches or whatever. Trust but verify, as they used to say during the Cold War. Ultimately, though, it's all up to you, not me or the other forumites.

The Wastrel
12/25/2002 11:35am,
Vargas, I have an off-topic question. What kind of nogs do you use to fly? Are they monocular like the standard groundpounder nogs we used?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**