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Lone Swordsman
7/12/2004 12:30pm,
I couldn't find any specific threads in the forum search, so bear with me...

From what I can tell, Jun Fan Gung Fu is the predecessor to if not the exact same thing as Jeet Kune Do. Can anyone correct or elaborate?

Gezere
7/12/2004 12:48pm,
Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do are NOT the same. (Hopefully I can save Omega and others a tiraid)

Jun Fan Gung Fu is an unfounded* system that Bruce Lee developed.

Jeet Kune Do is a CONCEPT that Bruce Lee established.



*I say unfounded because I haven't come across anything where Bruce says he has founded Jun Fan Gung Fu to be interchangeable to JKD. JFGF has been the name pple gave the core techniques Bruce taught while in Seattle.

danjo
7/12/2004 12:57pm,
Originally posted by Asia
Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do are NOT the same. (Hopefully I can save Omega and others a tiraid)

Jun Fan Gung Fu is an unfounded* system that Bruce Lee developed.

Jeet Kune Do is a CONCEPT that Bruce Lee established.



*I say unfounded because I haven't come across anything where Bruce says he has founded Jun Fan Gung Fu to be interchangeable to JKD. JFGF has been the name pple gave the core techniques Bruce thought.

"Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense"
Is the first book Bruce Lee wrote on Gung Fu/Kung Fu. Presumably this was "Jun Fan" Kung Fu or whatever. Jun Fan was Bruce Lee's name in Chinese. So it was "Bruce Lee's Kung Fu"

Gezere
7/12/2004 1:05pm,
I have the book and yes I know his name was Jun Fan what I meant was that he wasn't calling his system Jun Fan Gung Fu. What he wrote in the book was basic gung fu that was pretty universal. I think he was just writing on Gung Fu in general. His school in seattle was the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute, I think is still in business today, but like you said he could have just meant it as Jun Fan's Gung Fu. When hear Bruce speak of his art he said he was doing JKD but not as a founded system.

Gogiel
7/12/2004 2:10pm,
who do you think is the best Jun Fan master in the world?

jkdbuck76
7/12/2004 2:13pm,
you really need to read Matt Thornton's interviews where he talks about performance. Go to the Straight Blast Gym's website.

Gogiel
7/12/2004 2:30pm,
but he doesn't teach jun fa.

jkdbuck76
7/12/2004 2:37pm,
OK. You're right. However, he's got some ideas about "performance" being the goal and not certificates, etc.

Go to www.inosanto.com and check out the video collection. Inosanto describes in one of the previews of tape #1 what Jun Fan is. I believe he is saying that Jun Fan is the body of physical techniques that Bruce put together--but don't take my word for it.

Thornton teaches the concept of aliveness. They work on stand up, clinch, and ground fighting.

Matt Bernius
7/12/2004 2:42pm,
Hopefully this quote from Inasanto will help on this matter:

"I study Aikido, I study jiu-jitsu, I study Karate, I study Tae Kwon Do. I'll put it together and call it Jeet Kune Do. Is it Jeet Kune Do? It's Jeet Kune Do for them. BUT IT IS NOT THE JEET KUNE DO OF BRUCE LEE. The Jeet Kune Do of Bruce Lee has the Jun Fan Gung Fu material in the beginning and then from there they are supposed to grow and expand, that is Jeet Kune Do. And it is different for every individual. So I would say, if you did that; put Karate and Aikido and Tae Kwon Do and maybe wrestling, that could be your Jeet Kune Do, that's correct. But it is not the JKD as devised or created by Bruce Lee. Because when you see he had the Jun Fan which he thought were the basics, important, and then expand and find your own Jeet Kune Do."

- Guro Dan Inosanto

Jun Fan = Codafied Martial Art

JKD = personal expression of a philisophical concept

Antagony
7/12/2004 2:56pm,
Nice post, Mr. Bernius.

Ronin
7/12/2004 2:57pm,
Best definition of JKD in a LONG time !

Matt Bernius
7/12/2004 2:58pm,
Thanks. I was really happy when I came across that one. Tends to stop these discussions before they start.

Ronin
7/12/2004 3:01pm,
Nothing like hearing it from the "horse's mouth".
A LOT of discussions would end and lots of Bullshit would be cleared up, if we had more of that.

jkdbuck76
7/12/2004 3:03pm,
good post, Bernius.

Lone Swordsman
7/12/2004 4:27pm,
Yeah, this satisfies me. Thanks.

DANINJA
7/12/2004 4:29pm,
Jun Fan gung fu is heavily influenced by chi sao/wing chun

this article written by Chris Sutton(who teaches non-classical wing chun aka Jun Fan Gung Fu) explains the training involved

CHRIS SUTTON,
EXPERIENCE: 27 YEARS MARTIAL ARTS.
OVER 20 YEARS WITH JESSE GLOVER, HIS YOUNGER BROTHER MIKE LEE AND FRIEND ED HART.



This art is not to be confused with Jeet-kune-do, which attempts to circumvent contact... though based by Bruce Lee on his Non-Classical Wing-Chun. Contact is accomplished with the purpose of controlling or disabling the adversary with extreme overkill of hand to hand back-up system featuring an economical version of Chi-Sau, which can be practiced to extreme with solid instruction. Working with, as well as against, many other practitioners provides offensive and defensive orientation. Cardio vascular exercise is provided by extreme "straight punching" practice, against pads. During an average session, I encountered a much higher level of application of skill (neural system oriented) than in either film or class attended at any other time or place.


What Classical Wing-Chun practitioners correctly perceive is that force inhibits sensitivity to force...the old Tai-Chi concern with feeling where the opponent wants to go, and letting him go there. In my case, I would like to present a controlled (through extreme practice) force, that requires force in return, so that I have force to work with...to "help" the opponent go where he wants, and beyond. I want the opponent off balance/out of position with the upper or lower body, or both. Perhaps the key to Non-Classical Wing-Chun is learning to accomplish that, while remaining "centered" myself... not much different than the Tai-Chi goal. But I could never have found that in Tai-Chi, as it required contact with a partner, and excellent instruction to provide the skill... fighting is relationship. In essence, Non-Classical Wing-Chun is a way of improving our own position and ability, within relationship. That is also how it reflects, philosophically. We attempt to understand and create perspective regarding our relationships... and to comprehend when to let force go (soft), or when to fill the emptiness/strike (hard).
There is always someone stronger, so we must let force go. A wild attack leaves direct application for our own force, so we must fill the emptiness. Acquire the strength that comes from putting oneself in good position while remaining flexible... art in relationship. There are several problems inherent. Consider: "The artist loses creative intuition at the exact moment they become aware of the impression about to be made."

At a seminar in Europe, one young man was asked what he had come for. He told me he was going all over the world to work out with all Bruce Lee's seniors and assistants, to learn what Bruce Lee learned. Since we were in our hotel room I was able to explain that Bruce Lee had disciplined himself, after learning a basic system. I used Jesse's example of beginning to move from six feet away to on top of the opponent and halfway back, before a reaction could counter. The step is practiced over and over...4 to 10 hours each day, for 6 months...then one has developed a whole new muscular system and set of neural responses that allow movement to evolve.
Next you start over, changing the step in miniscule ways that are relevant now that you have new abilities. Perhaps you gain another 70% over the 100% gain of the first layer. Now another three months work and you are able to do something three steps removed from what began, so start over. When you get down to only about 20% gain, you have perhaps five or six layers of footwork and changes, so now add a punch. This causes footwork to change again, to adopt the strike. Perhaps there are two or three layers at this stage. You might be ten layers from where you began. Now you begin to add power...more change. Last, you remove all signs of telegraph from what you are doing...two or three more steps. You have to be able to begin with somewhat bent knees so you are ready to go, and not move up and down as you enter. Such movement attracts attention. "In the beginning, a punch is just a punch...in the end, a punch is just a punch..." But imagine trying to learn the final result without the preceding layers. Bruce Lee did not teach people the entire process. Who has the discipline to do it? It is interesting, as Jesse has often said, that 25 years later; no one can do what Bruce Lee did.


NCWC Stated Goal: Explore the mental & physical relationships of conflict.
Non-Classical Wing-Chun is a relatively new martial art. Its founder was Bruce Lee, with substantial input from his first student, Jesse Glover. I am a student of the art for the past 20 years. I have taught overseas, and done seminars. The following is a schedule I will maintain, in my instruction.
First 3 MONTHS: We will learn the back-up system of basic fundamentals. This involves contact with the hands of other students, with one practitioner designated as offensive and the other as defensive. The emphasis is on defensive hand and elbow position, and on learning to move in relation to touch and force. We will do exercises to build areas not able to maintain hand and elbow position at the outset. After the defensive position is completed we progress to "transition" positions, then "definition" positions, and then "preference", or offensive positions. I call this process "layering", as each position repeats the previous one as it goes beyond..this repitition is necessary in building responses into the neural system so one does not have to "think" which is appropriate.
3-6 MONTHS: We will become free moving in our offensive and defensive positions, adding the concept of CONFUSION. Introduction to straight punching, with emphasis on good mechanics, and speed. You should do straight punching at home, in a mirror, to see that you are in position. We will continue to do exercises to build our abilities to maintain position with hand and elbows, and "layering" defensive, transition, definit-ion, and preference positions…we will do these movements blindfolded. We will begin stick practice with a long stick..an exercise aimed at working against gravity in the same way we work against an opponents' hands and arms, which can be practised at home on your own, without a partner.
6-12 MONTHS: We will slowly add footwork to our program of confusion, and also more intricate handwork, aimed at moving from the outside, to the inside. At this point we will strongly emphasize getting inside and staying there. The defensive position will be finalized and full movement in that position will be attained. We will practice two hands against one, moving through our "layering" positions, spontaneously..the goal is to stop 75% to 85% of what is coming at you. You can never stop everything, but this work greatly improves relationship. Straight punching against a pad will begin to add force. We will start single-handed CHI-SAU.
12-18 MONTHS: We will begin our offensive orientation. This involves emphasizing heavy straight punching, with movement. We will begin CHI-SAU, the art of sensing force, misdirecting it, and filling the hole. We will become offensive in our efforts at getting inside. Introduction of the backfist.
18-24 MONTHS: We will begin to be competitive in our CHI-SAU, but remembering our own arm positions, and to work to help our partners achieve. This point will require a modest investment in face protection, as the backfist is competitively applied. Heavy straight punching continues, as does footwork. We will begin to add a powerful drop/falling step punch
AFTER 24 MONTHS: I hope to have 3 classes operating by this time, so that SENIOR STUDENTS can assist with BEGINNING STUDENTS. This is a necessary step in development of SENIOR STUDENTS, as they begin to analyze how each student moves differently. Things also look much different when you are showing them to another. CHI-SAU continues to develop, as SENIOR STUDENTS work one class per week on it exclusively. Straight punching will achieve combat form, through strenuous cardio-vascular exercise. The drop punch(FALLING STEP)will continue to be emphasized, and students may attend a third class each week, if they desire.
CONTINUING STUDENTS, OVER 3 YEARS: Anyone continuing past 3 consecutive years will achieve continuing student status. These students will conduct beginning classes with sensitivity and self-discipline. They should lead by example. CHI-SAU class will be private for these students, with one day per week emphasis on competitive CHI-SAU. Weightlifting will be encouraged and CONTINUING STUDENTS are free to use our club facility at their leisure (Till 10:00 P.M.). Stretching will therefore be emphasized. CONTINUING STUDENTS should be considered functional in their abilities to defend themselves, and will study doing so against multiple and weapon attack.